Why Modalism Is A Damnable Heresy

Why Modalism Is A Damnable Heresy

        In light of the recent T.D. Jakes controversy and Modalism I decided to write this article to better explain the problem with this heresy. Too many times Christians have no clue how to explain why Modalism is a damnable heresy because they do not understand its conclusions. Modalism is nothing new and pops in and out of the spotlight all of the time. In fact, while I lived in Eugene, Oregon my dad and other men from our Southern Baptist church battled with Modalists who were members of our church, but secretly involved in the United Pentecostal Church. The men were actually teaching sunday school for the youth group males, as well as trying to befriend many of the men of the church and influence them. They were trying to take over our church from the inside. This is the church I was baptized in when I was 15.

        One day I was taken on a trip with the main leader of these 3 Oneness Pentecostals who told my parents it would be good for me. His son came with us and we ended up going really far away, near the coast and meeting up with a large group of people to help build a church. We were installing drywall and helping pull wires through the ceiling. It so happened that the church was a United Pentecostal Church that I was helping do work for. He deceptively brought me on the trip to help his heretical church brothers fix up one of their church buildings. His deception was very strong as he accomplished the manipulation and brainwashing of 2 of our church men. The 2 men teamed up with him in order to attract more of the men so they would bring their families into their den of wolves. Heresy within an orthodox church has the tendency to become a zombie-like infestation that deadens the minds of men and puts them under the control of demonic influence.

        Another even worse issue was that the main leader of the 2 other heretics was having secret communion meetings behind the church outside on certain nights. He invited my parents to come once, and it was people who did not belong to our church, strangers they never saw before. They were having some kind of worship meeting and communion. They had set up a small tent covering in the back parking lot. At the time, my parents were new to the church so did not realize what was going on at that moment. Eventually, these wolves in sheep’s clothing were exposed and kicked out of the church, but not after many instense debates, arguments, and spiritual attacks.

       In various early church councils Modalistic beliefs were condemned as heresy. For example, Tertullian around 213 A.D. condemned it, and also in 262 A.D. this teaching was also later proclaimed as heresy by Dionysius, the Bishop of Rome. There were many other church councils that condemned it as heresy as well. So Modalism has never once been accepted as an orthodox belief in the Church. Even so,  too many people want to explain something as a heresy simply because a council said so, and with a biblical understanding of why it is heresy. Heresy makes salvation impossible so it is good to understand why it is so with Modalism, and why it is worthwhile to put fourth the spiritual energy to fight it and reject it outside of the Church just like my father and other men from our average sized church in Oregon did over a decade ago…

Introduction

        Modalism (also know as Sabellianism [named after Sabellius, the heretic priest from the 3rd century that promoted this heresy], Modalistic Monarchianism, Modal Monarchianism, Oneness, and Patrapassionism [which means the Father suffers in Latin]) is the belief that God is only one person and changes/shifts into different modes. This is a heresy that leads a person to Hell because any incorrect belief about the nature of God cancels out salvation by default. This default happens in different ways but always occurs. Modalism leads people to Hell just like any other heresy about God’s nature. Modalists deny the Trinity, and in most cases with extreme aggression. Unfortunately, many Christians have a hard time logically expressing why this belief is a damnable heresy. This heresy is an extremely strategically, deceptive heresy which tries to mask itself and blend in with Orthodoxy. It fools many evangelicals. Unlike other anti-Trinitarian beliefs that deny the deity of Christ, this heresy embraces the deity of their “Christ” hence why it is so deceptive (note: there is another less popular form of Modalism that denies Christ’s deity called Adoptionism, but is not the focus of this article). Modalists claim to love Jesus Christ and claim He is God, yet in reality Modalism denies Jesus Christ and is an antichrist religion. It is a very destructive belief and total blasphemy. Without a deep understanding of soteriology and the nature of God, Christians can be confused on how to explain why Modalism is heresy. This article will attempt to do so.

Who are Modalists?

Modalism has been a problem since the early Church and still continues to be a problem today. The main proponent of Modalism in modern times is the cult called the United Pentecostal Church (UPC). The televangelist, charlatan “Bishop” T.D. Jakes is affiliated with this group. Another cult that is almost as big as the UPC are the United Apostolic Churches (UAC). These groups are known as Oneness Pentecostals, and still, there are lesser known sects and individuals who promote a modalistic God. MacArthur (2007) states, “As these groups and their popular spokespersons have found increasing acceptance in the evangelical mainstream, modalism is suddenly being accepted as if it were a valid evangelical option” (p. 117). In some circumstances, people make the mistake of expressing God in a modalistic way to express the three Persons of God, such as using H2O as an example of three things being one which causes people to misunderstand the Trinity (i.e. water, ice, and vapor are different things but all three are still H2O, yet H2O is never all three at the same time). Some people mistakenly believe in a modalistic God out of ignorance of how to describe the Three Persons mentioned in the Bible. People try too hard to explain God and end up using human wisdom to describe God and are not satisfied with leaving the Triune nature of God as a mystery. True believers, who make such mistakes out of ignorance, eventually (and most of the time quickly), come to the realization that God truly exists in Three distinct persons who are not the same, yet comprise of ONE Eternal Being. This is why Christianity uses the term Trinity which means TRI-UNITY as in three-as-one. True Christians become satisfied with this mystery and accept it as just that, a mystery. No one can fully understand how God is, but Christians can know what God is because the Bible teaches it.

The type of people who come to understand that the biblical truth of God is the Trinity are people who care to know correct doctrines and want to love the true God and will seek out proper knowledge of the Bible. Sadly, most Modalists have absolutely no desire for seeking actual truth and want to force their opinions into the Bible because they have personal agendas. A truly innocently ignorant follower of a modalistic god will always repent within due time, without much division, strife, or aggression against Trinitarians. The others are simply heretics whom are inspired by Satan and will always fight a losing battle against the Trinity until they die and go to Hell. Unfortunately, the latter makes up the major portion of Modalists and always has. You can see the demonic minds of these reprobates expressed all over the internet, especially YouTube.

Modalism promotes a god that changes

Modalism contradicts what Christianity has historically accepted about the nature of God. True Christianity expresses God existing in three Persons that equal one Being. This belief is given the theological title of “Holy Trinity” to express this concept. Whereas, in Modalism God is expressed as existing in only one person that shifts into different modes and moves in different ways in different times throughout history. God “shape shifts” so to speak, from the Father at one time, changing into the Son another time, and also changing into the Holy Spirit at times. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit never exist at the same time in Modalism. The UPC and Apostolics call their god “Jesus” and they baptize their congregants strictly, only in that name. “Jesus Christ” is the proper name of God to them which covers the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Their “Jesus” god is all three: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but the modes are never shifted into at the same time. Their god is a changing god. This contradicts what the Bible teaches in Hebrews 13:8 which states firmly: “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” What is annoying is that many of these Oneness followers illogically use this same verse to somehow promote the Trinity being false. It is a fact that their religion is not at all based on logic when exegeting the Bible. What Oneness/Modalism promotes essentially, is, that Almighty God being only one person, died on the cross. Logically, this would mean that the Father came down and died on the cross but just shape shifted into the Son. So there is no actual different person of God dying on the cross. It is the same person dying on the cross, the same person giving itself as a sacrifice, and the same person accepting itself back into heaven. Modalism claims another “Father” that schizophrenically changes his personality by shifting into different modes. How can anyone trust a God who changes so sporadically? How can we even be sure there are only three modes of God? There might be more. This is a critical mistake! Not to mention it makes absolutely no sense!

Oneness followers love to use isolated proof texts from the Bible or misrepresent a verse’s surrounding context, and also ignore related passages in the Bible. One of their favorite verses they will quote is Isaiah 9:6 which says,

For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”

Oneness heretics will claim that this proves that Jesus Christ is the Father and only shifted His mode into the Son. The Son did not exist until the Father turned into Him. This verse does call the child Eternal Father, but that is only stating a fact about His Godhood, that Jesus Christ is fully God and God is our Eternal Father. Not that Jesus Christ is actually God the Father. Related passages in the Bible about Jesus Christ and God the Father explain it so.

The concept of the Holy Trinity is all over the Bible. The actual beliefs of the Trinity are misrepresented by Modalists who claim it promotes three gods and not one. This is not true. The Trinity teaches that all 3 Persons are different from each other and not the same, yet they are all One and the same God. The Father is 100% fully God, the Son is 100% fully God, and the Holy Spirit is 100% fully God. But the Father is not the Son, is not the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father, is not the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit is not the Father, is not the Son. Yet all three Persons are one God, the same God. This teaching is all over the Bible and it is a mystery that we cannot understand, but we must accept. God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit is our Eternal, Everlasting Father.

Modalism cancels out salvation by default

The most basic reason why Modalism cancels out salvation is that if the Trinity is true, it means that God is Three-As-One and anything other than a triune God does not exist. Worshiping a God that does not exist is idolatry. Modalism is a false religion and God commands that there should never be any other gods worshiped besides Him (Exodus 20:3). There is no forgiveness of sins if a person puts their trust into a false god. Just because the name of a false God uses the same titles and names as the true, triune God of Scripture does not mean it is the same God. Matthew 24:24 claims there will be false Christ’s coming, and 1 Corinthians 11:4 says that people can preach a different Jesus and a different spirit and Christians should not put up with it. Simply labeling something as Jesus does not change the fact it is a lie from Satan.

Another more complex reason that will help Christians explain on a deeper level why Modalism leads people to Hell is that logically, if the Trinity exists, Modalism cannot provide salvation because it does not give Christ credit for His atoning work on the cross. Romans 8:2 explains that there is no condemnation for Christians “because the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.” If the Trinity is true it means that only the Person of Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world. John 3:16 says that God sent His “only begotten Son” to die for those who believe. If someone rejects that there is a Person of the Son and instead claims there is only one person that changes, and the Son did not exist until He was manifest in the Incarnation of Christ, then there is no atoning sacrifice that actually happened since they reject the real Person of Jesus, the Son of God who actually exists and has existed eternally. Grudem (2000) affirms,

“[M]odalism ultimately loses the heart of the doctrine of the atonement– that is, the idea that God sent his Son as a substitutionary sacrifice, and that the Son bore the wrath of God in our place, and that the Father, representing the interests of the Trinity, saw the suffering of Christ and was satisfied” (p. 242).

Christians cannot accept Modalists as brothers in the Lord, and they should never be unequally yoked with Modalistic darkness. The modalistic god denies the Eternal Person of the Son, thus meaning they deny the true God and profane His atonement.

Without the Person of Jesus the Atonement is denied

What Modalism is actually saying is that the separate person of Jesus Christ, the Son, is not real and never died on the cross because He does not exist. A separate Person does not exist. Only the Father (or Almighty God) exists and changes his face to turn into and look like the Son. This is a bold denial of God as a whole (since Jesus Christ is fully 100% God) and a denial of the work of the existing Second Person of God: the Son.

A human example would be that a Father agreed with his son that he would go out and pay an extremely expensive price for criminals to be free from their death sentences, and that his son would own them and they would be given to him; and he would show them compassion. After hearing about freedom from their judicial punishments of death because of the son’s payment, those criminals— instead of going with the son who bought them— believe the father is actually the one who bought them because he morphed into the mode of the son. Furthermore, the criminals claim that the son who actually bought them with his father’s urging does not even exist. They believe only the father exists and shifts into a different looking mode to become his own son, but is still the exact same person as there is not a son person and a father person, but only a father person who shifts modes. He just changed into the son. So the son who actually bought them with an extremely expensive price is denied as well as his hard work earning the payment for them to be free. This is a major insult to the son. But in reality the only way they could be free is if they understand that the son is actually a real person who exists and is not the father, and they follow him. Because since these criminals deny the son who bought them, and instead believe his father shape shifted into a son to become him, that real son that exists separately from his father will deny them in the presence of his father.

Modalism denies Jesus Christ. The Bible teaches that if you deny Jesus Christ (being the Son of God, a separate Person from the Father, and separate from the Person of the Holy Spirit), He will deny you in the presence of God the Father. Jesus Christ Himself said, “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory and that of the Father and the holy angels” (Luke 9:26). Jesus in Luke 12:9 also said, “…but whoever denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.” So it is obvious that Modalism denies Christ despite the fact they try to claim they promote Jesus and follow Him. The Oneness “Jesus” is a “false Jesus” that does not exist and profanes, and blasphemies the true living, eternal, Son of God. It misplaces credit for propitiation onto the Father, when propitiation was strictly something the Son did. Romans 3:23 says that the redemption is in Christ Jesus, and in verse 24 it says, “God presented Him as the propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over sins previously committed.” It does not say that the Father was the propitiation. 1 John 2:2 explicitly states that Jesus Christ alone was the propitiation: “He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.” Since the Trinity is true, Modalism is denying God by claiming the Person of the Son does not exist. 1 John 2:23 expresses it simply, “No one who denies the Son can have the Father…” All repentant sinners become Christians who receive salvation. Christians are saved because they call on the name of the Lord and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. If someone repents to a false God that does not exist, one that denies the existence of the Person of the Son, they will not have salvation. Romans 10:9 says, “…if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” If a person claims this verse for a Modalistic Jesus, one that denies the Person of the Son, there is no power for salvation.

Modalism denies the Father’s ability to be a righteous judge

Not only is Modalism an offense to the Person of the Son, but it offends the Person of the Father by ignoring His sacrificial giving of His one and only Son, the Son which He loves so much in relation within the Godhead; and it claims instead that He is the one who died and gave the propitiation for sins. Ignoring the extreme sacrifice the Father allowed to happen to His precious Son is an extreme insult to the love of the Father for sinners that He would allow His own Son (who was willing) to be punished in their place; and not only that, but that the Father is the one who gave out all of the crushing punishment to His own Son. Isaiah 54:6 says, “The LORD has punished Him for the iniquity of us all.” Also, 2 Corinthians 5:21 states, “He made the One who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” Modalism denies God this glory and insults the Father. The Father remained pure and untouched by sin and is the righteous judge that gave out His wrath onto Christ. If Modalism is true it means that God existing in one person, being the Father would have became sinful and then killed himself. There would be no righteous judge untouched by sin able to pour out the wrath. It would be the Father becoming sin on His own and then punishing Himself. This idea cancels out a pure and holy Person who is able to remain innocent who can judge sin. In reality, since the Trinity is what is true, there is a righteous and clean judge untouched by sin that was able to pour out His wrath onto Jesus Christ (who was made sin willingly by the Father) and complete the ability for salvation to be completed. To deny the Father’s giving of His real eternally existing Son is blasphemy, and it cancels out the ability for salvation. Such a person as the “god father” of Modalism does not exist and it profanes the true Father’s work. Therefore, Modalism completely denies the true Father.

1 John 2:22 firmly states, “He is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.” 

Modalism denies the Holy Spirit

Not only does Modalism deny Christ, and the Father, it also denies the Holy Spirit and claims He is also the same as the Father. That would mean the Person of the Holy Spirit (who is 100% fully God as well) according to the Trinity does not exist, thus denying God completely. Nonetheless, Modalism is idolatry and an offense to the true God and will be punished on judgment day.

The Incarnation’s salvific power is cancelled out   

Modalism cancels out the ability for an actual human/God existence in Jesus (a conclusion that the Adoptionist form of Modalism understands). Jesus Christ is 100% man and 100% God at the same time. This is the dual nature of Christ concept that true Christians believe. Jesus Christ, who is God, came in the flesh (John 1:1, John 1:14) and was a blood sacrifice for our sins. Romans 7:4 says, “Therefore, my brothers, you also were put to death in relation to the law through the crucified body of the Messiah.” If God is only one person then it would mean that Jesus Christ is the same person as the Father. If Modalism was true it would be that Christ’s will as a human would not at all be different from the will of the Father because they are the same person. But the Bible says in Mark 14:36, John 6:38, and Luke 22:42 that Jesus was not doing His own will, but the will of His Father. If Modalism was true these verses would be contradicting this “one person only god” by expressing that Christ’s will as a human and His God will were not unified. This would mean that Jesus Christ as a human was not God, and that God must have possessed a human person that is not God.

Consequently, only God is infinitely valuable and perfect to be able to die for the sins of mankind in order to save them. One human could only atone for one life, but God could atone for everyone because of His infinite value. Also, humans are not perfect and never can be because all of them are born in sin. Romans 3:10 states, “There is no one righteous, not even one,” and Jesus Christ Himself expressed, “No one is good but One— God” (Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19). Even if God created a human body or a human person that was perfect, that He could fill up, it would still not be infinitely valuable. The fact is the Bible teaches that God paid for His people in His own blood (Acts 20:28). Therefore, God died for the sins of His elect which forces Modalism’s logical conclusion to be that Jesus’s humanity was not unified with God which means it could not possibly have provided salvation. There is no salvific power in the “Modalist’s incarnate Jesus.”

Conclusion

Hopefully, this article has effectively addressed the reasons why Modalism is a serious heresy, and is not to be taken lightly. Especially, it is not to be accepted as a valid, non-essential doctrine within the bounds of orthodoxy. Modalism completely denies the true God and creates a false god that does not exist. Modalism’s logical conclusion is self defeat. It denies all three Persons of God and commits theological suicide. It denies the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as well as the humanity of Christ that atoned for sin. Modalism is an illogical heresy and needs to be aggressively refuted in evangelical circles. Too many people are confused and unable to understand the mechanics of this heresy because it is so deceptive. It is nothing but a device of Satan and demonically energized within theological circles to lead people astray so that they will burn in Hell for eternity. Modalism is truly a damnable heresy.

References

Grudem, W. (2000). Systematic Theology. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.

MacArthur, J. (2007). The Truth War. Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

145 thoughts on “Why Modalism Is A Damnable Heresy

  1. First of all you need to stop calling names before you do your research. How is the trinity true if it is never declared. Although oneness is several times !!! (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:5, John 10;30, and hundreds more) Jesus had to have two natures (God and human) , because if he was just god he would not feel the pain of the cross, God simply made himself a body to be the pure sacrifice so we can be saved. Actually the UPC was created in the first place with a whole bunch of ex trinity believers basically. They made an organization that went back to the truth. (the bible) They threw away tradition and went to the bible. If you have any questions just ask. I’m sorry about the debating type spirit, but I couldn’t explain any other way.

    • Calling names? Where did I call names? The Trinity is declared all over the Bible maybe you should actually read it. Yes those verses say God is one and Trinitarians believe God is one so there is no problem there.
      What the Bible DOES NOT say is “modalism.” In fact it is not even declared once in the Bible. If you want to be as ignorant to say the word “Trinity” is not in the Bible that is an incredibly stupid argument. The word “modalism” is not in the Bible either, nor is “Oneness.” Also, the word “rapture,” “bible,” “eschatology” and more are not even in the Bible. Does that mean those words are not true either? Dont be so foolish.
      Yes Christ had a dual nature. Not 2 seperate things, they are both one yet Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. Would you deny that?
      The UPC was made by heretics who hate the true Jesus and want to brainwash people and control them in a false cult. It was made by men who did not take Scripture for what it says and wanted to add their own human wisdom to God’s words which is foolishness.

      If you could actually attack the points I made in my article maybe I would take you seriously. Try refuting my Scripture.

      • “If you could actually attack the points I made in my article maybe I would take you seriously. Try refuting my Scripture.”” of course not they cannot do that and they cannot face reality so in a false denial they next do make false personal attacks…

        • I was in a UPC church next door to where I had lived and I could immediately see they were in error.. immediately.. as the Pastor and the congregation were mainly materialistic oriented, carnal, they even clearly cheated, lied, stole and abused others.. while Jesus said by their fruits you can tell what they are.. there were no holy Spirit evidences visible here.. in fact I had to call the police when the Pastor physically assaulted me in front of a witness cause I refused to be rebaptiazed even.. they were crooked all the way..

          • Wow that is crazy! Yes most heretics and cults become aggressive and are vile people. It is satan’s influence in their evil religion that denies God.

  2. Okay first of all yes you are calling names saying that the UPC is a heretical cult. Those statements are false. We get every ounce of doctrine from the Word. But yes Jesus was 100% man, and 100% God. But he will NEVER take second place as the trinity declares him to be. There is no scripture saying he is in the fullness of the Godhead, but I can find one that says the fullness of the Godhead is in him. So if trinity is correct, prove it to me show me where it said God is three persons, and Jesus is second place. I am not trying to call names. Let’s settle this with a Christian attitude.

    • Trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ was the fllness of God. Collossians 2:9 says so. What is the problem here? Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus is second place. Jesus is co-equal with the Father and Holy Spirit.

      You are making straw man arguments.

      And the UPC is a heretical cult because it denies the plurality in the persons of the Godhead and says God shifts into modes and is never Jesus and the Father at the same time.

      “Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.” If God shifts modes how can this scripture be true?

  3. Colossians 2:8,9
    8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

  4. We do NOT believe God “shifts” idk where you got that from, God has one spirit which was in Jesus and is the Father, and is the holy Ghost never shifts. The word “ghost actually means in the Greek something felt , but not seen. Pneuma I believe. But anyways God doesn’t shift he is the same forever yes. Jesus is the Father. John 10:30 I and my Father are one. Why don’t you go look up the word “persons” I have no idea how you caN SAY God is THREE AND ONE AT ONCE ??? Just please show me ONE scripture where it explains God’s threefold nature. Cause from what I understand there is none. Please can you do that for me? prove me wrong and i will shut up.

    • Sonds more like you are trying to ignorantly describe the Trinity instead of modalism. Do you realize that? Modalists all teach God changes in modes and is never actively the Son, Father, or Holy Spirit at the same time. You on the other han r enot following UPC doctrine and seem to be describing some sort of Trinitarian concept, all though it isnt completely accurate.

      This is because modalism is silly and makes no sense an you cant even be consistentwith it.

      Where in the Bible does it actually say “Jesus is the Father?” Its not in the bible. But there is plenty o verses saying Jesus is the Son of God in the Bible. lol

        • You capitalized Sons which is not in the bible. Did you know demons are called sons of God too? Read Job 1. Jesus is known as THE SON OF GOD not simple “a son.” So if you want to use that to support your theory that Jesus is not seperately God it only promotes the idea of Jesus being part of the Trinity as ONe God in three persons.

          What is sad is you dont see your logic only promotes Trinitarian exegesis but you are too blind to see it.

          • God is one being, not seperate beings. Stop misrepresenting what the Trinity is. Its not seperate beings, but one being but it exists in three persons. Get it right. You keep bringing up straw man arguments. If you actually read my articles you willknow my stance. Do your homework and stop being lazy. Im not going to spoon feed you doctrine.

          • If God is one being how is He three persons. And to let you know I have done my home work and am not lazy. UPC Does not believe what you think them to believe. You need to do your homework on the UPC. Just because other Trinity believers said the UPC believes God shifts modes. Take it from me, an actual UPCI member. But go ahead look up the meaning of the word persons. Stop trying to let tradition get in your way. I have no clue how you could get this idea.Did you know trinity wasn’t even thought of till the third century. And if YOU will do your research you will find that REAL Apostolics believe the same as the first century church. And also did you know Jews believe in ONE God too. Jesus was a Jew. That is why he was crucified, because they thought he was blaspheming. That is the only false thing about Jews they still dobn’t know Jesus is God. So before you go making labels do YOUR research.

          • Just because you are a member does not mean you automatcally follow all of their statements of faith.

            Is God actively Jesus Chris, actively the Father and actively the Holy Spirit all at the same time?

            My research has led me to read the entire bible more than once and understand that it teaches a triune God. There is only ONE GOD. Stop saying I dont accept that. You are attacking a belief I dont even follow by stating that I believe in more than one God.

            Who was Jesus praying too up in heaven? How does Jesus sit at the rght hand of God the father if they are both the same person? Who was Jesus talking to when He said “Father why have you forsaken Me??” So was the Son of Go forsaking Himself? Or was someone else called the Father forsaking Him?

          • Saying God is three persons is saying there is more than one God. But Jesus had two natures as I said before. Jesus’ Human nature was feeling pain so that wasn’t The god side of him speaking, but the human side. And I’m sure you have heard someone say “you’re my right hand man” doesn’t mean literally at your right hand does it? You can’t take the Bible at face value. You have to look at it historically, spiritually, and metaphorically. So I guess the holy Ghost is at the left hand? NO, that’s just ridiculous! And if he literally is at his right hand then he’d have to be a separate being.

          • Saying God is Three Persons is not saying it is 3 seperate God’s. We are saying all 3 are ONE GOD, yet existing in three Persons. This is a mystery. What you UPC guys try to do is add human philosophy and ideas to define how the Trinity works instead of just accepting it.

            You cant take the Bible at face value? So we should just think the entire bible is just a joke or not serious? Who is to decide what we should take literally and what we shouldnt? Apparently the UPC decides it to fit their man made doctrines since taking the bible literally would only promote the Truine God that exists.

          • No I DID read your whole comment. You just have no basis to argue against me and have thus been proven wrong completely and now you are running away with your tail between your legs instead of admitting you are wrong and repenting.

          • No that is completely false. The Bible talks about judging peoples fruits and I don’t see any. So with that I am leaving. Sorry I refuse to argue and call names like you have been doing, but I’m done.

          • You are done bcause you lost the argument and have no logical way to explain why you believe in the heresy you are following. Repent man and leave the UPC cult.

    • Ahhh, prooftexting like a good little heretic! Let us read the whole verse, in context:

      22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” (John 10:22-30)

      Follow the passage closely. Jesus is explaining his plan to save and keep those whom have been chosen (v. 27-28). He then goes on to explain how his father also desires to keep them secure. In this, they are of one purpose. That is obviously what Jesus is saying. It doesn’t make any sense that right in the middle of a discourse on calling and securing his sheep, that Jesus would randomly say something about his unity with the father. Jesus’ unity with the father in being or person is completely unrelated to the subject at hand and an anachronistic interpretation. It is a proof text favorite of the UPC, if you will. UPC aren’t terribly well known for their exegetical skills, however.

      But let’s say this IS about Jesus’ ontological unity with God. Say I granted that the verse, at least in English, is saying that Jesus IS, in fact, one in both being and person with the father (Jesus = the father). Does this hold up? No. Let us examine the original inspired Greek rendering.

      Transliterated, John 10:30 reads: ego kai ho pater hen esmen.

      “Esmen” is the to-be verb translated to “are” in “We are one.” Esmen is PLURAL. The verse literally reads, “I and the Father, WE are one,” thus keeping with and confirming the reading that Jesus means “we are one in purpose” not “being and person.” It also retains the personal distinction between the Father and Jesus, again supporting one God, but a plurality of persons within that one God. In fact, many translations actually translate this verse, “I and the Father, we are one,” because that is what it truly says. But some more formal translations like the KJV, NASB, and ESV seek to make a one word equivalent with each Greek word, adding as few words for clarity as possible, and so translate it “I and the Father are one” so there are no added English words. Yet even with the context it is apparent that Jesus is not speaking in terms of being and person, but in terms of purpose; namely, to hold his sheep secure, so that no man may pluck them from their hand (v. 29).

    • The “Spirit of truth” is the title Christ use in reference to the Holy Spirit he clearly said he would “send” after he returned to the Father. Fighting about semantics and expressions etc. is clearly petty bickering not truly concerned about truth. All of Jesus’ life on earth reveals an intimate relationship with his Father, that continued even when he was resurrected. He declared” touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my Father”. If normal persons who read the Bible accepts this simple and practical understanding of these Divine Persons revealed by scripture as not only co-existent but having intimate relationship of the highest emotion and virtue love. It is clear this cannot be heresy but God’s self revelation. Otherwise we would have to charge Christ himself with deceiving men. The great mystery of God that the human carnal mind cannot grasp is total selflessness. Do you ever note that the Father personally glorifies the son as the Son the Father and also that the Holy Spirit is distinctly spoken of as one who would glorify the Son and Father as well. Unitarianism and carnal religions cannot understand the relationship of these persons without spiritual regeneration. Note Jesus’ high priestly prayer in Jn. 17:11, 20-23 v. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them that they may be one as we are one.

      Plurality becoming divine oneness is not only the quality of the Godhead it is God’s purpose for all true believers not only among ourselves but with himself. My honest prayers for you is that we will all come into the unity of the faith Eph.4:13. One Love

  5. I also have another question. How could you figure out Jesus is coequal with God if it doesn’t say that in the Bible. My WHOLE problem is your taking something biblical and stretching it alllll outta context putting in your own man made terminology.

    • Oh really? And how am I doing that? Jesus is coequal with the Father because of John 10:30 you already listed that.

  6. I’ve never heard of this “modalism” but i know for sure the UPC doesn’t believe that God shifts modes. But yes Trinitarians and oneness are similar, but the whole “persons” and god is three people in one thing is not Biblical. AT ALL. But once again, prove to me God is three distinct people in one?

    • read my article!!!! It proves enough. read my blog its all over. I dont need to re-hash what ive already written all over the place.
      Also UPC DOES believe in modalism and if you didnt know that you are ignorant. Oneness = modalism it is not similar to the Trinity. It is simply not the Trinity. And if you deny the Son you do not have God and will go to hell for the reasons stated in the article you need to read.

  7. I’ve been in the UPC my whole life, and have never heard about God “shifting”. And your article just has your own opinions about the God head. Okay, since you are so stubborn as to what the UPC believes lets just throw that outta the picture, cause I am a 100% Bible believing person, and I believe you are too. You’ve obviously been taught this a while. So just throw away all that whatever anyone has ever told you, and look at the BIBLE. Find your own understanding. I think you would agree God is one that was manifested in the flesh. And btw I am NOT denying the Son, I just don’t believe He is a separate being than the Father. Do you? Explain this “persons” deal, please. Cause no where does it say God separate but declares He is one everywhere I’m sure you have noticed several times while reading the Bible.

  8. I have heard from medalists saying the trinity did not exist until forth century. In other words, they reject the concept of a trinity was taught by the earliest Christian.
    But do not allow them to deceive you.I would introduce to you what one of the apostolic fathers– Ignatius of antioch wrote.
    I refer to one of his letters that he wrote to the Christian in his day.
    THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE TRALLIANS CHAP. VI.–ABSTAIN FROM THE POISON OF HERETICS. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.iv.vi.html
    In the whole chapter he talked about different kind of heretics.
    And surly “Oneness” was mentioned as a heretical teaching.

    “For there are some vain talkers and deceivers, not Christians, but Christ-betrayers,”
    ” For they speak of Christ, not that they may preach Christ, but that they may reject Christ; ”
    “Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person,”

    The Oneness is an anti-Christ movement that started from the very begining of the Church.
    For they speak of Christ, but the Christ they are speaking of is an idol!
    No one can saved by an idol by caliming it is co-equal to the true living God.
    Not a hand made one, nor a brain made idol. They cannot save you!
    Repent! Repent from your sin and leave the heretical group. Repent! Believe in the real gospel of the real Jesus Christ and you are saved!.
    Stop making any idols. Stop listening to those vain talkers about the idols they have made by there own imagination. Stop twisting the Scriptures, as Peter says “He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16)

    I would follow the apostles and their own students to reject any heretics and call them brothers or sisters. Where are the true Christians? Where are my beloved brothers and sisters? Would you do the same thing!?
    I urge you to abstain from the poison of the heretics in this modern day.

    • Well thanks a lot sir! That means a lot to me. Hope more people understand why real Christiansneed to reject this heresy and anyone promoting it.

      • Firstly I’d like to state that I am a Traditional Christian ( Belief in Triune God/Trinity), been a Christian for 32 years, been to Bible College and served as a Church Leader.In case you see fit to attack me too! I cannot believe some Christians and how they seem to be turning into Internet Inquisitors.
        Who gives you the right to talk to the Oneness Christian UPC that way? God certainly dosen’t!
        I am sure you think you know your Bible, but so did the Roman Catholic Priests who murdered people because they did not interpret the Bible as they did, during the Inquisitions in Europe in the Middle ages!
        Surely we have moved on from That! Frankly The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the most important thing!
        And before you infer that I am dumb and don’t know what your arguing about. I assure you I do know what Sabellianism/modalism and Oneness are! You quote that THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS said
        “Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person,” And you use this in your arguement against Sabellianism. But it can’t be what he was referring to; as Sabellianism/modalism and Oneness, DONOT believe Jesus Christ to be a ‘mere man’ but they believe Him to be an expression of God ( as do Trinitarians) and that all 3 expressions are the ONE GOD!
        There is not much difference between each theology all though I concede that there are several Modalistic beliefs NOW, including some well known ‘Sudo-Christian sects’.
        If Trinitarians or Oneness, etc, believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ; that He was God made Flesh, died for our sins, was ressurected, and provides FULL Salvation for ALL who believe on HIM, isn’t that what matters? How can YOU say someone is going to hell? Hell is reserved for satan and those who follow him. A place which Christ will create in the future, The Lake of Fire ( Hell) at the end of this world and the Great Judgement. Meantime He call us NOT to Judge, but only, as our UPC friend above suggested nicely, are we to judge FRUIT, judge not to condem, but to know what TREE they hang on!
        Could I suggest that you spend more time with your Lord Jesus and let His fruit rub off on you, because I think the UPC Christian blogger has more fruit than you do. Don’t be a crusader be a Christian.

        • You seem to be a confused modalist who is mistakenly self-identifying as a Trinitarian. Your interpretation of Ignatius is totally wrong. It is obvious that the Trinity is distinct persons, that is the historic belief as well. The modalists you are claiming were “so nicely explaining” things to me were anything but. A stern comment gets a stern response. Much like your stern comment is going to get this stern response. You are openly claiming heresy is okay and condemning me for biblically proving why the Modalist doctrine is a false doctrine worthy of hell. You are completely judgmental to the point of questioning my faith it seems just as the modalists are attackiong me viciously and claiming anyone who believes in the Trinity is a heretic and going to hell. You are one in the same with those heretics sir and need to seriously re-consider your stance on the nature of God. Re-read my article because you seem to have missed a lot of points. You cannot have belief in the gospel if you get the nature of God and what He did wrong. Who God is is part of the gospel! You cannot have the gospel without the trinity it does not work and does not compute.

  9. I am not going to take sides on how to approach the subject of Modalism or Oneness Heresy . I know from experience that it can be very frustrating trying to point out a serious heresy to someone who sincerely believes that they are right . However it can also be very frustrating to someone who sincerely believes they are right when they are wrong if the comments are very judgemental .

    I have spent alot of time on my Blog , Former Or Future Former United Pentecosals , presenting Scriptures which show a distinction of the Father , Jesus , and the Holy Spirit . I have also presented verses of Scripture that show that someone must not only believe in Jesus Christ for Salvation but they must also believe in the one who sent Him . That is hard to do if someone believes that Jesus is God the Father . According to Scripture , the Father , Jesus the Son , and the Holy Spirit all play a role in Salvation .

    What I have a real problem with when it comes to Mordalism or Oneness is the judgemental attitude of many people to the extent that Christians who believe in the Trinity are deceived and lost . It is extremely difficult for someone to be a menber of the UPC or any church organization that teaches Modalsm or Oneness , because they are identified with heretics even if they are good people who are not judgemental of everyone who disagrees with them .

    • Well of course heretics are going to be judgmental and tell you that you are going to hell. They are deceived by a satanic doctrine that has them condemned to hell. If they don’t repent they won’t see salvation. Since they are in such a state under God’s wrath and love their sin they detest the true gospel and the true God. It is no wonder they are going to say everyone who believes in the Trinity are going to well when in fact it is really them who is going to hell. It is spiritual deception. This should not be surprising. Any true Christian should run from UPC churches and discontinue their membership at such godless churches.

      • I agree with what you are saying but I sometimes get concerned as to whether it is productive or counter productive to take such a strong stand even if the stand is based upon Scripture . You may very well be speaking with boldness and if your are doin so in faith and not out of emotion , I am sure that God will use what you are saying for His good purpose .

        • So what should I have a weak stance based on Scripture? Does God say, “Hey follow my Scripture but make sure you have a weak stance and don’t take a hard position on it”? Do you think it’s productive to withhold truth from someone?

          • I am afraid I am guilty of being cowardly sometimes and this is one of those times . I have sometimes been very bold in my statements on a particular subject and then wondered if I should have expressed it differently . Actually it is better to be bold when presenting the truth of Scripture than to cover up the truth to appease readers . Keep up the good work . I am on your side even though I may have you wondering if that is so .

          • Well man, I agree you should keep a hard stance on Scripture but yes present it with love. but love is not always soft, sometimes it is very hard. You cannot let heretics and antichrists beat you down. It is not wrong to be harsh with such god haters who love their own filth and lies instead of following the conviction of the Holy Spirit that does convict ALL MEN of their sin. The other sinners reject it and want evil.

            Some people are ignorant, modalism is a very deceptive idea. Many people ignorantly follow a form of it without actually trying to reject God. These people will turn to the true Faith through prayer and persuasion with logic and facts from the Bible. There is hope for such people but the ones who love their own pride will reject it even when the facts are presetned. Just keep standing up for truth and use Scripture man. Follow the verses I use in this article as well as my arguements. Present them to your friends who are stuck in deception.

  10. The writer of this article either does not have an understanding of the modalist doctrine of the true Church or he is lying on purpose.

    I’m sure his three gods are happy with his lies.

      • The Son of God was praying to the Father, the same one Spirit who is in Him. The prayers of Jesus is not proof of more than one god as you are teaching, it shows that Jesus was a man and the Spirit of God within Him humbled Himself to be as a man.

        • Straw men do not win arguments.

          So God is a spirit of Himself and is inside of himself? Sounds like you are the one promoting more than one God…

      • 2 Cor. 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation

  11. How did Jesus pray to Himself? What about, “Let Us make man in Our image”?
    I will say though that making the judgment that all these people are not Christians and will go to Hell is out of bounds. Not your decision to make. You can say it’s heresy, as I would, and some of these might go to Hell. Tell you what, if I was an unbeliever and read this stuff you could count me out of Christianity!

    • I don’t think you even read my article and just wanted to do a drive by post. Jesus did not pray to Himself, He prayed to the Father. READ MY ARTICLE AND YOU WILL KNOW WHAT MY POSITION IS! As for counting you out of Christianity, I already do. It is not up to me to save you it is the conviction of the Truth given by the Holy Spirit that puts people into Christianity. Heretics like you cannot handle the Truth and will continue to deny it all the way to Hell. As for the verse “Lets Us make man in Our image” only reinforces the fact that the Trinity is what is reality and completely speaks against any idea of a Modalistic God. Get a clue and stop throwing out straw man fallacies to Trinitiarians.

    • Brent Eason, stop posting lies and purposely misrepresenting the doctrine of the Trinity. It shows you are simply spitting the venom of Satan.

      • No lies or misrepresenting was done by me.

        Deleting my comment shows that you have no real defense against the truth. Neither against Modalism, nor the bloody past of your non-Christian religion.

        • No I deleted your comment because you are flat out lying about what Trinitarians believe and claiming we believe in 3 gods when we don’t. You are simply repeating things over and over and not even addressing logical points from my article. You are simply a loud gong and clanging symbol of heretical misrepresentation of biblical truth. My entire argument is based on Truth. I do not defend AGAINST truth, but you are opposing the truth in what you say. My entire article is a defense against modalism and it seems to intellectual for your to grasp. Maybe you are demon possessed, I don’t know, or just an arrogant person who refuses to be corrected. Or maybe you are brain washed growing up in a UPC church. Also, my religion is not bloody unless you mean the blood Christ the Son of God shed on the cross as He was given over as a sacrifice from God the Father who gives fourth the Holy Spirit of God who is dispensed by Christ to believers for victory over sin and false teachings. 3 persons 1 God. This is historic Christianity and the Christianity of the bible.
          If you are referencing the Catholic Church, then you are wrong because I have never been a part of it nor do I support it. You are simply a troll online who has no valid points and just repeats over and over nonsense. You are also lying. Now be gone!

          • I speak the truth. You are the one who spoke lies about what Modalists teach.

            Three separate beings, each having their own personality, ability to speak to each other, and one can know something that the others do not know. How is that not three gods?

            It sounds to me that you are the arrogant one since you think your writings are “to intellectual” for others to understand. Don’t you know that Christ came to save the simple, not the arrogant intellectual?

            Anyone who reads the history of the Catholic and Protestant churches, can clearly read about the bloody history of both groups. Yes, Protestants have a bloody history too. Ever read what John Calvin did to Michael Servetus? Here is a quote from John Calvin…

            “If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight.” (Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (Baker Book House, 1950), p. 371.)

          • I was wrong about what Modalists believe with regard to what I was taught in the UPC , However Moldalism does not line up with the overall teaching of Scripture . I have noticed that even without using the name Trinity , I have still come to the same conclusions as the many Christians who believe in the Trinity . What is contained in Scripture was written long before the Roman Catholic Church began and definitely before the Protestant Church began . Therefore , I do not base what I see in Scripture upon what Raman Catholics and Protestants have done that is evil . If I considered everything that they have ever done , I doubt that I would have faith in God at all .

            I see verses of Scripture where someone will say that if the Father , Son , and Holy Spirit are eternal and distinct , there are 3 gods . However , I beleive that according to Scripture , there is one God . The one God I believe in is capable of being 3 distinct persons because He is all knowing and all powerful and can do so much that is beyond human logic .

            There are verses. of Scripture where God the Father acknowledges Jesus as God . That does not mean that He acknowledged Him as another god . There are verses of Scripture where Jesus spoke to God the Father and clearly acknowledged Him as someone distinct from Himself . That does not mean that one god prayed to another . There are verses of Scripture where Jesus spoke about God the Father as someone distinct from Himself and about the Holy Spirit as someone distinct from Hmself and the Holy Spirit . That does not mean that there are 3 gods .

            The Apostle John wrote that Christians have fellowship with God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ . He was simply identifying God the Father as someone distinct from Jesus just like Jesus did . John spent time with Jesus and obviously learned from Him just like most of the Apostles did . That does not mean that they beleived that God the Father and Jesus are 2 gods . Obviously they were familair with the Old Testament verses of Scripture that teach that there is one God .

            I have noticed that when I have fellowship with Christians from various church organizations , there is an agreement aobut what the Scriptures say regarding God the Father , Jesus , and the Holy Spirit . There normally is no one promoting Oneness ( Jesus Only ) or Modalism involved int the fellowship . When there is , there is trouble that is serious conflict to the purpose of the fellowship . There is a common bond of Christians promoting the Gospel of Jesus Christ . There is no contention of anyone claiming to know and understand everything about how God is revealed in Scripture as the Father , Jesus , and the Holy Spirit . It is actually the contention that someone knows everything about what the Scriputres teach that is the root of controversy . I personally do not claim to be able to explain everything about the Father , Jesus , and the Holy Spirit . The reason I cannot is the same as any other human belng —
            everything about God and who He is goes far beyond human comprehension . People can only read what is in Scripture and accept or reject what is there .

          • The distinction between Father and Son of God that you are seeing in Scripture is the distinction between God and a man, not a distinction between gods/persons.

            Here are some questions for you…

            1. Is the Father Holy?

            2. Is the Father Spirit?

            3. How many divine Spirits are there?

            4. Is the Father the one and only Holy Spirit?

          • Your first 2 questions are foolish as you and I already know the answer to those questions .

            There is only one Divine Spirit but the Father and the Holy Spirit are still distinct . How can that be ? I do not know . I can only accept what is there in Scripture .

            The Father is not the only Holy Spirit since He is not the Holy Spirit . How can their be only one Divine Spirit if the the Father is not the Holy Spirit ? I do not know .

            As far as your explanation of the Son being distinct from the Father , that is false since Jesus existed in Deity with the Father prior to his Birth as the Son of God . He certainly functioned as a human being while He was on earth but he never ceased to be Divine .

            I can see the points you are making and I must say that in contrast to the belief that Jesus is the Father , Son , and Holy Spirit that I was taught in the UPC , your points have more of a Scriptural basis . However , the fact remains Modalism cannot explain everything about the distinction of the Father , Jesus the Son , and the Holy Spirit without contradicting Scripture . It is not necessary for a Christian to be able to explain everything about how God exists as the Father , Son , and Holy Spirit . What is important is to understand the function of the Father , Son , and Holy Spirit . I can find that in the Trinity and I am also able to find unity in the Body of Christ through the Trinity . Wherever there is Modalism , there is no possibility of unity in the Body of Christ .

            I have noticed that you attempt to refute many of the explanations from Scripture regarding the Trinity . Your time being spent refuting the Trinity could be better spend teaching people who do not know Scripture about what the Scriptures say about the Father , Son , and the Holy Spirit . However , it appears that you will only be able to teach them what the Modalists believe . Jesus said , ” Not every one who cries ” Lord , Lord , will enter the kingdom of Heaven but only those who do the will of my Father . ” It is hard to do the will of the Father if someone denies who the Father is according to Scripture .

          • I did not say that the Father is the Holy Spirit . You are implying that is what I said based upon my answer to your question . There is one Divine Spirit in the sense that accordng to Scripture God is a Spirit . However , the Father , Jesus in His Divinity , and the Holy Spirit are all a part of one Divne Spirt while being personally distinct . There is nothing in Scripture that says that only God the Father is a Divne Spirit . According to Scripture , God is a Spirit , those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth . The Spirit in Divine essence refers to the Father , Jesus ( Son ) , and the Holy Spirit .

            I find it incredible that your knowledge of Scripture is so superior to many Christian scholars who have studied for many years what the Scriptures say about the Father , Jesus ( Son ) , and the Holy Spirit . Every conclusion that I have come to regarding the 3 all say essentially the same thing that the scholars say and what many church organizations believe . As I have stated , I do not have all of the answers about everything but I do know what I see in Scripture and I do not see any evidence of Modalism lining up with the overall teaching of Scripture .

            I think that it would be nice if there could be some new participants in a discussion of Modalism . I have presented what I believe and you appear to be determined to prove that I am in error which I see no point in arguing . You obviously deny the Deity of Jesus or you would not explain the distinction of the Father and the Son the way that you did . Jesus is not just a man who is a manifestation of God . He is God and was with God the Father in the beginning . That is why when He was born , He was called Immanuel which means God with us . That does not mean God the Father or Holy Spirit with us .

            You remind me alot of the people I knew in the UPC who can tell everyone everything that they know from Scripture but cannot accept anything that anyone tells them from Scripture .
            The Doctrine of the Trinity has survived the test of Scripture for centuries despite the opposition and it will continue to survive in the Church .

            I see no point in going any further with a discussion with you . I can see now why some of your comments which I do not remember reading may have been deleted . You have been trying to refute the Doctrine of the Trinity and simply do not have enough Scripture to do it
            You are doing exactly what Oneness beleivers do by presenting some Scriptures which make valid points while rejecting the verses of Scripture wihich refute Oneness and Modalism.

          • “I did not say that the Father is the Holy Spirit .”

            Do you call Him unholy spirit then?

            “There is nothing in Scripture that says that only God the Father is a Divne Spirit .”

            1 Corinthians 8:6-7 (KJV)
            6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

            “You obviously deny the Deity of Jesus or you would not explain the distinction of the Father and the Son the way that you did .”

            Incorrect. Jesus is God.

            “You are doing exactly what Oneness beleivers do by presenting some Scriptures which make valid points while rejecting the verses of Scripture wihich refute Oneness and Modalism.”

            There are no Scriptures that refute Modalism.

          • The fact that you insinuate that I implied that the Father is not Holy says something about your mentality . Anyone who reads Scripture knows that God is Holy . Just because I do not beleive that the Father is the Holy Spirit does not believe that I do not believe that He is Holy .

            Ther reason that I claimed that you deny the Deity of Jesus is because you said that the distinction between the Father is God and Jesus is a man making it appear that is your basis for the distinction . You are of course correct that Jesus is God . That is obvious in Scripture .

            It would not surprise me that you are among the people who go out into their communities to spread the Gospel and end up getting restrictions placed upon where people are allowed due to complaints from Bible believing Christians who hear about all of the confusion and controversy that is stirred up by those who oppose the Trinity . I can tell you right now that you would never get very far in my local area promoting Modalsim . You may get a little farther than those promoting Oneness but with the numerous Christans who have a knowledge o Scripture , including many who have a knowledge that is superior to mine , the truth of Scripture will stand on its own .

            God the Father knows His Son personally . His Son knows Him personally . God and Jesus know the Holy Spirit personally . The reason that many Christians see that in Scripture is because they have spent time reading Scripture and developing a love for the God revealed in Scripture while you and many people like you have spent time trying to prove your own interpretation of Scripture and the way that you communicate with people on this forum reveals a hatred that you have for the God revealed in Scripture . I personally have had about all that I can stomache of you to the point that I feel like going off of this website altogether .

          • Trinitarians do not believe God is 3 separate beings. Please stop lying and using straw man arguments. Also, ACTUALLY READ THE ARTICLE! Cause it is obvious you did not.

  12. Without getting into an argument about Church History or or who is saved or lost , I would like to present something that I learned from Scripture when I was in the UPC . I was taught that Jesus is the Father in Creation , the Son in Redemption , and the Holy Spirit in Regeneration . I beleived that because I did not study Scripture on my own and people in my congregation did not dare to question what they were taught .

    After I left the UPC and learned to study on my own , I came to see that God the Father , Jesus , and the the Holy Spirit each have certain Scriptural criteria that distinguishes them from one another . For example Jesus
    is identified as the Anointed One , One and Only , Son of Man , Son of God , Immanuel , and the Word .
    Nowhere in Scripture are the Father and Holy Spirit idenitifed by those names .

    Jesus is identified as the Son of the Most High . God the Father and the Holy Spirit cannot be identified as the Son of the Most High .

    I could go on for awhile on this but I just wanted to point out some Scriptural logic . It is true that there is nothing in Scripture about persons in the Godhead . The whole concept of persons has to do with the personal relationship that the Father , Son , and Holy Spirit have with one another . Actually if someone knows God personally as he is identified in Scripture , they can have a personal realtionship with all 3 who are the one true God .

    • You did not have an understanding of Modalism.

      “Jesus is identified as the Son of the Most High . God the Father and the Holy Spirit cannot be identified as the Son of the Most High .”

      Modalism does not teach that the Father/Holy Spirit is the Son. We teach that He is the Spirit in the Son

    • Yes the relationships the persons of the Trinity have with one another are mentioned in the bible. It is a mystery of God but clearly taught in Scripture. There are 3 distinct persons who are not the same yet all are equally the ONE GOD.

  13. I have noticed that many of the same people who claim that the Trinity is a pagan doctrine or it is heresy are the same people who insist that unless someone is Baptized with a formula such as ” I Baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ , ” they are not saved . I am not opposed to that formula as I was Baptized with that formula and since I know that Salvation is though faith in Jesus Christ , it is certainly appropriate to use the name in the formula . However , I have a problem with people who claim that in Baptism if someone is Baptized with such words as ” Upon your profession of faith in Jesus Christ , I Baptze you in the name of the Father , and of the Son , and of the Holy Spirit , ” such a Baptism is not valid . I see nothing in Scripture that forbids such words to be used and actually using such words acknowledges God for all who He is and the fact that the Father , Son , and Holy Spirit all play a role in Salvation . I am certain that God honors such a Baptism since faith in Jesus Christ is mentioned and if the person being Baptized has truly placed their faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation .

    I am wondering how someone can deny what Jesus actually said to Nicodemus , ” For God so loved the world that he gave us his only Son , that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life .”
    Jesus clearly referred to someone other than Himself in that verse . That is a very important verse because Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about being Born again of Water and Spirit . I am certain that Nicodemus being familiar with the Old Testament , did not believe that Jesus sent Himself to earth .

    Jesus spoke to the Apostles about waiting in Jerusalem for the promised gift of God the Father . The promised gift is the Holy Spirit .
    In Acts 2 , Peter spoke about God the Father , Jesus Christ , and the Holy Spirit in words where the distinction is obvious . His message resulted in approximately 3000 Jews being saved .

    I have read many comments online from people who do not believe in the Trinity and the only thing that I can say in all fairness is that there is considerably more Scripture to support the Trinity in contrast to Modalism or Oneness . I have spent alor o

    f time focussing upon what the Scriptures say rather than what the Modalists or Oneness believers claim that they say regarding how God is identified in Scripture . I do see some verses in Scripture where there is some agreement but for the majority of Scripture , it is impossible to agree . That is why I do not attend a church who teaches Modalism or Oneness .
    People will typically believe what they are taught . I know because I spent 15 years trapped in Oneness afraid that God was going to send me to Hell if I went to a church that believes in the Trinity . The UPC cannot deny that they instill such fear in their members .

  14. Whitedragonawa , You certainly have a gift of patience and longsuffering that I wish that I had . I have had some opposing comments on my Blog from people who insist that they are right on various subjects but out of the thousands of visitors on my Blog , I have never seen someone so determined to prove that Modalism is right and the Trinity is wrong , that they make insinuating comments such as the one about the Father not being Holy . As my dear departed Grandmother used to say when I tried her patience as a child . ” Oh God , of Jesus , somebody help me . “

    • Just think of it as comedy and ignore the heretic. He is obviously illogical and ignorant and showing himself to be a fool. Maybe he is demon possessed who knows. But he is absolutely being an idiot and that is a fact. He has not at all answered ONE of the accusations I wrote about in my entire article and is just repeating himself and lying about what Trinitarians believe over and over. It’s why he is getting his comments trashed now.

      • Whitedragonawa , I have read on this website about Modalism and found what is written to be true . I have no doubt that in contrast to the Trintiy , Modalism does not have enough Scripture to support the Doctrine .

        I am sure that you are well aware that there are many reputable Bible scholars who are familiar with Modalism and essentially present the same views that you do . When I use the words Bible Scholars , I am not referring to people who are so educated that they outsmart themseflves , but to people who have actually read the Bible and studied it well . Having a knowledge of language translations is a real asset . I have noticed that when someone presents some of the Hebrew of the Old Testament and Greek of the New Testament with regard to how God is identified , it confirms what many people have found even in English .

        I have noticed as many Christians have that among many of the Christians who believe in the Trinity , there is unity in the Body of Christ . The people in unity have a responsibility to do the will of God the Father by doing what they can to spread the Gospel . It is hard to have unity , if you have people condemning perople for belieivng in the Trinity and for not being Baptized with the formula in the name of Jesus .
        I have this wonderful feeling that although I do not know you and some of the people who have p;osted in support of truth on this website , that they could come to my church or I could go to theirs and we would feel like family . I really believe that the Holy Spirit has a way of operating on websites so that readers can discern what is in the hearts of the people posting . Most people I have met from various church organizations all seem to believe in the same important points of Scripture regarding who God is and Salvation .

        God bless you .

  15. Pingback: Repost: “Why Modalism [and the Jesus Only Movement] Is A Damnable Heresy” | Christians United Against Apostasy

  16. First of all I believe in the Trinity and don’t see ever having this belief change.

    What you are saying is that what you believe about the nature of God is what your salvation is dependent upon? What about the blood of Jesus? Are you not promoting a salvation based on orthodoxy? Not just orthodoxy but PERFECT orthodoxy? If there is something about the nature of God that you are wrong about that you are going to hell? Where can I find this standard in the Bible?

    I came here looking for what was so heretical about modalism, so far it seems like little more than a difference of opinion.

    If we want to talk about heresy I think we could make better use of our time talking about the damnable heresy of dispensationalism.

    • First of all nobody has PERFECT orthodoxy, but we can still try. And yes what you believe about God very well can affect your salvation. And yes salvation is based on orthodox beliefs and no I am not stating that salvation is dependent on perfect orthodoxy. There are many Christians who believe in things I do not agree with, but they are non-essential issues. But with essential issues, if you get them wrong, they do affect your salvation. The Triune nature of God is a must for salvation to work and if you actually read my article you would understand why. And if you actually read it all; you would be able to address points I made about my stance on modalism. But so far you just wrote an emotional appeal and did not base anything you said on credible evidence.
      The evidence from the bible that supports my standard that one must believe in the Trinity is written all over my article so I suggest you actually read it.
      Modalism is a difference in an opinion, and it is a seriously wrong opinion because it is a serious error that blasphemies the one true God and His nature. This cancels out salvation. And now you put up a diversion and mentioned dispensationalism as a damnable heresy. Now you are just acting stupid. You go from “difference of opinion” and being upset about “perfect orthodoxy” to stating your own perfectionist view about orthodoxy –and without any biblical proof– damned all dispensationalists to hell. You are such a contradiction and an absolute tool. Get real.

      • His sheep hear His voice. That is the KNOWING that matters. Giving mental assent to the proper orthodoxy I don’t think is going to be a replacement for a hearing ear relationship.

        Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
        (Joh 10:25-28)

        Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
        (Mat 7:20-23)

        Nah, I don’t believe that dispensationalists are ALL hell-bound. I do think that believing that the body of Christ is separated into two covenants is a bigger issue than modality. If you are worried about orthodoxy regarding the person of the Son, I’d think that would be a better place to start. There is only one covenant that leads to life.

        Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
        (Gal 4:24-31)

        • There are many types of despensatioanlists. Before you simply stated dispensationalism is a damnable heresy, which it is not. And never once was it condemened as heretical in any church council. It is simply your opinion. Now you are saying it is not ALL damnable and you have now changed your stance it seems. You should stick with something and claim it and not just change your argument.
          Also, denying the Trinity was condemned in the early church council and modalism was addressed as heresy in all of its forms. Rejecting God in His true nature is going to leave you under God’s wrath. Part of the things I addressed in this article you have not actually read to talk about the person of the Son. If you reject the Triune God of Scripture you do not KNOW God, nor do you hear His voice. Since your argument is about KNOWING then such a person does not actually KNOW God.

      • Also note the condition of salvation in Matthew 7:21:

        Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
        (Mat 7:21)

        They which do the will of my Father. Orthopraxy not orthodoxy.

        • The only people who do the Will of the Father are Christians. Anyone else does not do anything for God. By your statement it would suggest that works based righteousness is what gets people into heaven and not the free grace given by God who does all the work for us.

    • The truth is… there is no Scripture that says that the trinity is necessary and for such a “necessary” doctrine it is very odd to not even be taught in Scripture.

      While we Modalists have Scripture for one God and one God manifest in flesh, trinitarians have no verse that says “trinity” or “three persons”.

      However, the fruit of the Spirit is taught in Scripture, not having the fruit of the Spirit is damnable. Calling people “stupid” and a “tool” shows a lack of spiritual fruit

      • I do not believe in Modalism but I cannot say that someone is not saved if they believe in Modalism . I believe that according to Scripture someone is saved through faith in Jesus Christ . If someone truly has faith in Jesus Christ and is therefore saved , they will have the Fruit of the Spirit .

        Although the word Trinity is not found anywhere in Scripture and there are no verses of Scripture which mention 3 persons in the Godhead , the concept is in Scripture and can be found if someone spends some time reading and analyzing what the Scriptures say . The concept of persons has to do with a personal relationship with God the Father , Jesus , and the Holy Spirit . A Christian can have a relationship with all 3 and all 3 play a role in Salvation . All 3 have a personal relationship with one another . For example the Father loves the Son , the Son prayed to the Father , and the Holy Spirit led Jesus into the desert to be tempted by the Devil .

        Where the problems come with Modalism is when people who believe in Modalism are so devoted to it to the point where they believe that someone is going to Hell for not believing it such as beleving that the Baptismal formula must be in the name of Jesus in order to receive the remission of sins and to receive the Holy Spirit . Not everyone who believes in Modlalism believes that only they are saved and everyone who believes in the Trinity is lost . I personally believe that there is more of a Scriptural basis for the Trinity in contrast to Oneness but not to the extent that someone should be called stupid or anything that is deragatory .There are many people who beleive in that Trinity that have an attitude that is not very Christlike .

        I personally have found that in my community that it is necessary to avoid fellowship with the UPC since they believe that they are the only people in my community who are saved . It is not Modalism that is the problem but the Baptismal formula issue , necessity of tongues , and holiness standards that have been the problem . I cannot speak about all Modalists everywhere becasue not all Modalists have the same attitude everywhere and some of them may be openminded and get along well with Trinitarians .

        I will humbly admit that sometimes I get frustrated with people when it comes to discussing some points of doctrine according to Scripture , and sometimes I have had to ask God to forgive me for having a bad attitude . However , I have noticed on this website that there are some people who are so sure about what they believe and they are not willing to look at what someone is showing them from Scripture even when they are being shown something that is true . I tend to feel their frustration .

        • If you are claiming I so truly believe so hard that the Trinity is necessary for salvation and anyone who openly rejects this is going to hell then you are right. Also, I am showing you from scripture and everyone else why this is so. The modalists who came here are only complaining, using mutliple logical fallacies and in no way have answered any of my claims from Scripture in this article. They are simply emotionally appealing and giving opinions based on their feelings, not on any facts.
          I have refuted all of their claims in this article and you simply accepting the Trinity personally, but saying it is okay to be a modalist, is damaging to the cause of Christ and the interpretation of the Bible. You are being liberal in your beliefs.
          Yes someone can believe in Christ and not understand the Trinity concept that is 100% taught in the Bible without a doubt, and still be saved. But the point where someone openly rejects the Trinity whens own evidence and given understanding of what exactly the Trinity doctrine is, they are openly rejecting God and thus still under God’s wrath and will go to hell unless they repent and accept the truth of the Bible. If you feel sad or upset about this take it up with God, not me. And to also claim I am calling a person stupid when I am actually addressing their points as stupid (not specifically their intelligence level, because a smart person can use stupid arguments at times) is silly and does not hold weight.

        • Hi billiskramusic10.
          I love the way you have written in this thread- just the right mix of I have learned a lot from your writing! I have a very dear friend of mine who is a Modalist, but not to the point where she believes that only Modalists will be saved. She has been brought up in a church where Modalism has been taught, but is looking for answers at the moment. As a Trinitarian, I’m having a hard time finding the right words/things to say to her. English is not her first language, so I’m finding it hard to present the Trinitarian view to her in a way she will understand; to show her how it is different to the modalist view, and how the Trinitarian view makes more sense from a Biblical viewpoint. Would you be able to help me with this?
          Your sister in Christ

          • Hi, thanks for the comment.

            I only speak English so I cannot help you. Just print this out or copy and paste it or send her the link and have her actually read this article. Maybe discuss this article with her and the points I have made. Also, talk to your pastor about her and this situation and pray she will understand. God bless and it is great you are involved with her to help her know the true gospel.

      • Brent I guess you are going to condemn Paul, Peter, John the Baptist, and even Jesus for insulting people in the Bible. Get real. Stupid comments and behavior deserved to be called out.
        You are still sticking around I see. You just can’t get over the effectiveness of this article to prove your belief as heretical. The concept of the Trinity is all over the Bible, but modalism is not. Nothing in the Bible says, or even suggests God changes modes and cannot be a different person at the same time. But the Bible does show three persons interacting as ONE BEING in the bible. My article proves it.

  17. I do not see where they called another person “stupid”. Calling out ignorant comments is not the same as calling a person “stupid”.

    Your teaching on what Modalism teaches is incorrect. We do not teach that God cannot be Father, Son of God, and Holy Spirit at the same time as you claim. We just teach that the Father, Holy Spirit, and Son of God don’t have separate personalities and therefore are not three gods in unity. Our doctrine is simply one God and one God manifest in flesh. Both are Biblical while three gods with separate personalities are not.

    The distinctions that are seen between Father and Son of God is a distinction between God and God as a man, not personalities and gods.

    • Sorry you are wrong. And I did not directly call someone stupid. Would you prefer YOU WHITE WASHED TOMB, YOU VIPER, MAY YOU BE DESTROYED IN HELL etc? Are those nicer insults than stupid?

      Modalism teaches that God cannot be working as the Father at the same time He is working as the Son or at the same time He is working as the Holy Spirit, thus God cannot be the Son-Father-Holy Spirit at the same time. Yet the Bible shows God working as all 3 persons at the same time in various parts of the Bible. John 8:38, Luke 3:22 etc.

      You keep saying we believe in 3 God’s but you are wrong. This approach you are using to prove the Trinity wrong is not working yet you keep saying it over and over again which is why I originally deleted your comments. Did you know the definition of an idiot is someone who does the same thing over and over again expecting the same results? I suppose you will now say “Many come to Me saying Lord Lord etc” in order to claim I am not a Christian, but the evidence of your stubborn attitude to refuse logical arguments as well as actually addressing points I claimed in my article shows you are of Satan. now be gone!

      • Modalism teaches that God can be Father, Son of God, and Holy Spirit at the same time without being separate personalities/gods.

        • So you believe in a God with a split personality disorder who has sever psychological issues…I am sorry but Trinitarianism does not teach “personalities of God,” but it teaches “Persons” of God who are completely different from one another and not a mode of 1 Person. 3 different Persons.
          What you are claiming actually is “personalities” in 1 person. You cannot wear 3 masks at the same time. I have never heard any modalist teaching that God can act as the Holy Spirit and also the Son and also the Father at the exact same time, nor do you see that in Scripture. You do see distinct separate things with each Person though. Jesus is the same today, yesterday, and forever.

          • Only one personality. Only one God. Separate roles.

            Isn’t three personalities in one person, or multiple personality disorder, what trinitarians claim to teach to avoid admitting three gods?

            God appears in Scripture in the roles of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time. Any doctrine that contradicts that is not true and is not Modalism.

          • Where did God appear as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time? You are not promoting the generally accepted idea of modalism, but your own idea in order to try and make excuses for why God has 3 things going on while you claim ONE PERSON only. Makes no sense.

  18. I struggle with the Trinity Doctrine to the extent that it considers Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be distinct persons – because of the word ‘persons.’

    The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are so far beyond what I’ll call (for the sake of convenience) ‘person-hood’ that to limit God to the attributes of a person – to anthropomorphize God, in other words – also seems like risking a different kind of heresy to me. I don’t see anywhere in the Bible any evidence that all God is – is a person. The word person has an interesting etymology, related to the Greek word persona, that I’d be glad to consider.

    Yes, we’re definitely made in God’s image – but to me, that suggests that we are far more than we think we are (and please note that I didn’t say that’s all it suggests). To my mind, this is something of a deep subject and I want to stay on point in this post…

    God does appear in different modes, but I don’t know why it’s impossible for God to be manifest in more than one mode at one time. That seems arbitrary, and possibly my main difficulty with thinking of God in the way of the heresy described in this article.

    For example, even molecules of the same substance can coexist – simultaneously and in equilibrium – in different modes. Here’s a Wikipedia article on the triple point of water: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_point_of_water#Triple_points_of_water), which discusses temperature and pressure values at which H2O can coexist as water, ice, and vapor. If H20 can do it, why can’t God? 🙂

    I’m not aware of the dimensions of any box regarding which we can say ‘God fits completely in this one!’ I think Modalists and Trinitarians – and everyone else, for that matter – most certainly including myself – could do worse than to exercise care in trying not to commit a new heresy, that I ‘ll call Boxalism. 🙂

    Hey, best wishes to all! I am posting here in an effort to learn. I hope that any replies will be edifying (i.e. building up).
    🙂

    • In Philosophy or theology “person” means a self-conscious and rational being. In God’s case He is ONE being but 3 persons. In the way theologians use the term persons we are saying there is ONE BEING called God yet 3 distinct self-conscious and rational things that make this ONE Being. This is what Trinitatians believe. Modalists always misrepresent us on purpose as you can see.

      God does not appear in different modes. He exists as all 3 persons simultaneously and acts as them at the same time as well. God is ONE being that eternally exists in 3 distinct persons, and God always is constantly existing as all 3 at the same time always and always has. He does not shift, change modes, shapeshift, etc.

      Water does not exist as wetness, vapor, and also ice at the same time. Ice has modes. It does not exist as ice/water/vapor at the same time, but exists and works differently depending on what it changes into. God is unchanging as I have stated in my article through the bible verses I used. So your H2) analogy does not fit God. It is a false analogy.

      And God is one thing, so if a box is the bible then God fits in that box and is what that box says it is. God is what the bible describes. He is not what people feel He is or what you want Him to be. He is what the bible specifically teaches. And I have given ample evidence for it in this article.

      There is no new heresy being created by anyone. Trinitarianism is not heresy and never has been. Modalism is heresy and has existed in a few different forms that I mentioned in the article. So check them out.

      Have a nice day.

  19. Thanks for your reply, whitedragonawa; it’s certainly given me a lot to think about.

    I should probably start by trying to be clearer about some of the points I was trying to make in my first post, as well as the questions I was asking.

    First of all, I was not even remotely trying to suggest that Trinitarianism is heresy, and I apologize sincerely if I gave that impression at any time.

    And I wasn’t trying to suggest the use of a physical fact, i.e. the triple point of water, as an analogy either. It’s a definite fact that water exists as water, ice, and vapor simultaneously at its triple point, so I should probably be clear about that too. And if God created water, and water can exist simultaneously as ice, water, and vapor, then it shouldn’t be problematic for God (the creator of water, after all, and all the many substances that have known triple-point properties) to exist simultaneously as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    So, speaking as a definite neophyte when it comes to theology, I was trying to say earlier that I see no inherent contradiction the doctrine of the Trinity. To me, it seems that the evidence of the physical world, created by God, is at least a reflection of God’s character. I think this is consistent with Romans 1:20, “…since the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made…”

    I still tend to think of the Father as far more than a person, and the Son and Holy Spirit as far more than people too, but I need to mull that over for a while. For God to have a Triune nature, I don’t understand the necessity (inherent or biblical) of considering the elements of the Trinity as people. And I’ll definitely do some digging in Scripture on that question.

    But to magnify my confusion about the Trinity doctrine even further, the Bible mentions not only a Holy Spirit, but also a Spirit of Christ (1 – Romans 8:9 “Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.”; 2 – 1 Peter 1:10-12: “Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.”).

    And Revelations mentions the Seven Spirits of God several times; I’ll mention just Rev 3:1 – “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.”

    The idea that God is One and more than one at the same time isn’t so difficult for me to imagine, I guess, but to try to unravel all this while being told that God is Triune is very difficult for a new Christian to unravel!

    Could God actually be more than Triune after all? Could God be Father, Seven Spirits of God, Son, Spirit of Christ, and Holy Spirit – all at once? I guess that’s a total of eleven. I’d be very interested in knowing your thoughts about these passages, and I imagine that mainstream Christianity has a clear explanation for these passages.

    Your analogy about God and the Bible as the box that contains him is very interesting, possibly the most interesting (to me) part of your last post, and I’d like to ask a few questions about that too. Of course, I want to repeat that I’m not disagreeing when I ask questions! Although it surprised me, I try to think of most surprises as opportunities to learn something new, so here goes:

    When I read your words saying that God fits in the box of the Bible, I wanted to ask whether the Bible contains everything about God.

    For example, John 21:25 reads, “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.” So it seems that the Bible is saying that Jesus did many good works that aren’t in the Bible.

    And although the Apostle Paul knew scripture, and even wrote scripture himself (under God’s guidance), he says in Romans 8:26 that “we do not know how to pray as we ought,” adding that “the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words.” I’m quoting with Revised Standard Version for this passage, because that’s the version my web search returned, but I typically use the NIV.

    But regardless of the translation, the passage seems to indicate that God as Holy Spirit actually speaks in ways that words can’t express. In any event, if there are divine thoughts too deep for words, and the Bible consists of words, then that would also seem to suggest that God transcends the Bible. Do you think that’s a sound interpretation, or is there a better way to think about these passages?

    Although my unschooled tendency is to think that God transcends the Bible, I surely don’t want to be dogmatic about it, in part because being dogmatic can be a serious barrier to learning.

    But something else I’ve wondered about is whether mainstream Christians consider that the physical world is part of God’s word, since he did speak the universe into existence after all.

    Thanks again for reading my meandering and confused questions! I’d surely appreciate your insights.

    Best Regards,
    Pryzm

    • ” And if God created water, and water can exist simultaneously as ice, water, and vapor, then it shouldn’t be problematic for God (the creator of water, after all, and all the many substances that have known triple-point properties) to exist simultaneously as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”

      Water or ice or vapor all exist as different objects or things. They are not the same thing. One body of water is not the exact same item as vapor in the sky somewhere, or ice in a frozen place. Its not the same. H2O is not the same H20 in another place.

      The Triune God is the same thing at the same time. God is ONE BEING, yet He is 3 but it is all one. It does not matter if it does not make sense to you. It is incomprehensible to any human yet it is what the Bible clearly teaches and we will probably get to spend eternity pondering it. God is a mystery as it says in the bible. The Son is the Father is the Holy Spirit. And all 3 are God.

    • Spirit of Christ? Spirit of God? Holy Spirit?

      That passage in Romans 8 is only confirming that Christ is God, that God is Christ, that The Spirit is God etc. 8:8-10 says “Those whose lives are in the flesh are unable to please God. You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God lives in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. Now if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” Further down the chapter is keeps saying Spirit, Spirit of God, and saying it lives in you. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. Same thing. I think the context makes this obvious if you look at it closely.

      Revelation 1:4 also says 7 spirits.

      Some people say this is the same thing as what Isaiah 11 says about the 7-fold ministry of the Holy Spirit. And some people say it refers to Zechariah. But 7 is the number of completeness so talking about the 7 spirits of God would mean God’s completeness. Not actual spirits.
      Now if they are living spirits it is possible they are some angelic beings that minister to God or watch over the 7 churches talked about in revelation. Or it is symbolic that the churches are represented as 7 spirits in the passage. But it is not saying “God has 7 spirits inside of Him.” I don’t think enough evidence exists in the bible to attribute this to God being 11 in One so to speak.

      Yes God does things behind the scenes of the bible and in ways we don’t know. But what we DO know is from the bible. What we CAN know and are TOLD to know and are explained that it is ALL WE NEED to know for now, is in the bible. Nothing outside of the bible that is claimed about matters of faith and spirituality can be objectively truthful or trusted. God reveals Himself in His Word. Not anywhere else. It is not right to assume or say other things not found in the bible are also true. And yes we have the complete Word of God in all 66 books of the bible. Nothing more is from God and nothing more will be from God. read my article about my biblical doctrinal statement to learn more. It mentions briefly how or why we got the Bible in its current form.

      And yes the Holy Spirit when it is time gives us the knowledge of what to say when necessary. But what it will help you say is whatever the bible teaches. As Christians the Holy Spirit enlightens us to Gods word and we can recover it and mention it when the time comes. That is why we study the bible. That is not some mystical experience or emotion or feeling or some crazy vision or whatever.

  20. HI whitedragonawa,

    I just started reading your post and don’t come to the conclusions you do about God being one here. I am apostolic (22 years) but some of the things you say about modalism don’t represent my what the lord has revealed to us so I’m not comfortable with being called modalist. One of the primary distinctions is that you imply that modalists believe that God only exists, operates in one mode at a time. Whether or not thats what modalists believe I don’t know but its certainly not what I understand to be true through study of the scriptures and communion with Jesus. God is not limited to the confines of time so the same way he talks toand communes with thousands of people at the same time, his being Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simultaneously (at the same time) is not only a non-issue, it is a characteristic of his “is-ness”. Wouldn’t you agree?

    • Well you are Apostolic so of course you are not going to come to the same conclusion as me. This only means that you are wrong and do not correctly interpret the bible or understand it. If you are not comfortable being called a modalist then embrace trinitarianism and stop believing heresy. And according to my article above it is not a “non-issue” but is an essential issue. Church history also supports this attitude. If you don’t want to be considered a heretic then stop believing heresy and actually look at the points I made and listen to them. If you refuse to listen prove me wrong and stop saying “emotional feeling” responses about how you simply just don’t feel comfortable being a modalist. It is really that simple. Modalism believes what I said it believes in the article. You admitted you do not know what they believe so please stop trying to defend a position you don’t even claim to understand.

      • Thanks for the fast response. I can understand your discrediting part of my response as merely emotional but its actually more and effort to as the scripture says be “harmless as a dove and wise a serpent”. Your initial statement here “Well you are Apostolic so of course you are not going to come to the same conclusion as me…” is not an accurate assumption-smile.
        I don’t draw conclusions based on association ie just because I associate myself with those that affectionately call themselves “Apostolic” doesn’t mean that I am deaf to truth from other sources. Quite the opposite actually, the bible says that in Romans that “the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: ” To shut myself off from other avenues to the Lord prevents me from experiencing all that he is. And brotha, I want all of him-smile. So lets be clear, I’m really trying to hear what you are saying. It its our obligation as believers to make our calling and election sure. That’s why he said let us come together and reason. Do you think you and I can have that kind of dialogue?

        • “Thanks for the fast response. I can understand your discrediting part of my response as merely emotional but its actually more and effort to as the scripture says be “harmless as a dove and wise a serpent”.”

          It was emotional though. You said “I feel that..” It was not based on any objectional facts.

          “Your initial statement here “Well you are Apostolic so of course you are not going to come to the same conclusion as me…” is not an accurate assumption-smile.”

          Really now? So then what are you? If you believe in apostolic doctrine you will be apostolic and therefore you will not be Trinitarian and then come to an incorrect view of God. This is common sense.
          What you are saying is like say “Oh he is a mormon and he does not come to the same conclusion as you to the bible, but then again its not because he is mormon. In fact being mormon does not mean he even believes in mormonism.”
          Does that idea make any sense? NO! So yes you claim apostolic and then say youd o not come to the same conclusion as me. Well its obvious. What is your point in complaining about it?

          “I don’t draw conclusions based on association ie just because I associate myself with those that affectionately call themselves “Apostolic” doesn’t mean that I am deaf to truth from other sources.”

          You said you were apostolic. You did not simply say, “Oh I have some friends who are apostolic.” Get real dude. If you are not deaf to truth then why do you have a problem with my article? How about proving me wrong instead of complaining?

          “Quite the opposite actually, the bible says that in Romans that “the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: ” To shut myself off from other avenues to the Lord prevents me from experiencing all that he is.”

          What are you talking about? There is only one avenue to the Lord. That is through God’s Word and the conviction of the Holy Spirit given to you by God. Ephesians 4:5 says “One LORD, one FAITH, one BAPTISM.” There is only one avenue. And if you go the wrong way down that avenue by misinterpreting Scripture you go the wrong way anyway! You don’t reach God.

          “And brotha, I want all of him-smile. So lets be clear, I’m really trying to hear what you are saying. It its our obligation as believers to make our calling and election sure. That’s why he said let us come together and reason. Do you think you and I can have that kind of dialogue?”

          Of course we can. And I am trying to but you seem to be bothered a lot how I respond. Prove my article wrong and tell me why you come to another conclusion. That is what you should have done to begin with. What conclusion do you come to and why?

          • “Thanks for the fast response. I can understand your discrediting part of my response as merely emotional but its actually more and effort to as the scripture says be “harmless as a dove and wise a serpent”.”
            It was emotional though. You said “I feel that..” It was not based on any objectional facts. (“I feel” in this context denoted my opinion or perspective not my emotional state so, again, this is incorrect assumption. It’s not uncommon to use such phrases in a non emotional context. Nevertheless I’ll be careful in the future with such phrasing if talking to you )
            “Your initial statement here “Well you are Apostolic so of course you are not going to come to the same conclusion as me…” is not an accurate assumption-smile.”
            Really now? So then what are you? If you believe in apostolic doctrine you will be apostolic and therefore you will not be Trinitarian and then come to an incorrect view of God. This is common sense. What you are saying is like say “Oh he is a mormon and he does not come to the same conclusion as you to the bible, but then again its not because he is mormon. In fact being mormon does not mean he even believes in mormonism.”
            Does that idea make any sense? NO! So yes you claim apostolic and then say youd o not come to the same conclusion as me. Well its obvious. What is your point in complaining about it? (You missed what I was saying, bro. Listen again. Just because I’m associated with Apostolics… no, let me go further as it may help you. Just because a person is associated with a different view than you hold (Pentecostal, Methodist, Buddist, Hindu, whatever), it doesn’t automatically mean that they are not open truth. The scripture says “when you hear the truth you will know it and the truth will make you free”. Stop writing people off just because they come from a different perspective than you do-smile. Listen to what they actually say and then draw a conclusion as the Lord leads. It will make you a better witness. So… let me reiterate… I come from a different perspective that you… but truth is truth. If that truth is in your mouth and it is indeed truth then its from Jesus and I want it!! )
            “I don’t draw conclusions based on association ie just because I associate myself with those that affectionately call themselves “Apostolic” doesn’t mean that I am deaf to truth from other sources.”
            You said you were apostolic. You did not simply say, “Oh I have some friends who are apostolic.” Get real dude. If you are not deaf to truth then why do you have a problem with my article? How about proving me wrong instead of complaining? (Not complaining at all… read up Furthermore it is you that did not answer my question me not me refusing you. Here is my question again in case you missed it. I’ve truncated it a bit for easier understanding. “One of the primary distinctions is that you imply that modalists believe that God only exists, operates in one mode at a time. God is not limited to the confines of time so the same way he talks to and communes with thousands of people at the same time, his being Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simultaneously (at the same time) is not only a non-issue, it is a characteristic of his “is-ness”. Wouldn’t you agree?”)
            “Quite the opposite actually, the bible says that in Romans that “the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: ” To shut myself off from other avenues to the Lord prevents me from experiencing all that he is.”
            What are you talking about? There is only one avenue to the Lord. That is through God’s Word and the conviction of the Holy Spirit given to you by God. Ephesians 4:5 says “One LORD, one FAITH, one BAPTISM.” There is only one avenue. And if you go the wrong way down that avenue by misinterpreting Scripture you go the wrong way anyway! You don’t reach God. (Bro, again… you’re jumping to inaccurate conclusions. There is one avenue to SALVATION. The lord however speaks in many, many ways. By avenue I only meant, which I thought was clear by the context of my usage, that it is a way to see God. That’s different from salvation. You can only be be born again one way and that is Repent, be baptized in Jesus name and you shall receive the Holy Ghost.)
            “And brotha, I want all of him-smile. So lets be clear, I’m really trying to hear what you are saying. It its our obligation as believers to make our calling and election sure. That’s why he said let us come together and reason. Do you think you and I can have that kind of dialogue?”
            Of course we can. And I am trying to but you seem to be bothered a lot how I respond. Prove my article wrong and tell me why you come to another conclusion. That is what you should have done to begin with. What conclusion do you come to and why?
            (Ok lets start here..you said this
            “Modalism contradicts what Christianity has historically accepted about the nature of God.” The operative phase here is “historically accepted”. If by history you’re referring to anything other than what the Jesus and the apostles said directly then the basis of your claim of what true Christianity is, it is suspect. And since Modalism tells believers to do exactly what the Jesus and the apostles said do relative to salvation and to believe on him as they said to, I’m not seeing the issue with it. Most of your statements are based on the Trinity being right (making inherently biased; non-objective and thereby invalid in making a case for embracing the Trinity.) or they are so subjective or presumptive that they have no “teeth”.)

          • “I feel” in this context denoted my opinion or perspective not my emotional state so, again, this is incorrect assumption. It’s not uncommon to use such phrases in a non emotional context.”

            If you say so. If you had said “I truly believe because…” and gave me a reason for why I am wrong that would have been better for you.

            “(You missed what I was saying, bro. Listen again. Just because I’m associated with Apostolics… no, let me go further as it may help you. Just because a person is associated with a different view than you hold (Pentecostal, Methodist, Buddist, Hindu, whatever), it doesn’t automatically mean that they are not open truth.”

            Before you said you were apostolic. Now you say associate with them. Okay so you have apostolic friends but are not apostolic yourself. What are you? What do you believe?

            “The scripture says “when you hear the truth you will know it and the truth will make you free”. Stop writing people off just because they come from a different perspective than you do-smile. Listen to what they actually say and then draw a conclusion as the Lord leads. It will make you a better witness.”

            You didn’t give a reason for your opinion. What else am I suppoosed to do? I am not writing you off if I allow you to post. I have to approve each comment. I am also replying to you. Is this writing you off? No, it is challenging you to argue against the points in my article and provide evidence for why I am wrong. I expect you to do it. I didn’t write the article for no reason.
            Also, if someone’s belief contradicts Scripture I am going to condemn it and not accept it as a valid truth. The nature of the Triune God is an essential belief to have for salvation. It is a very serious topic and if you get it wrong you are not going to go to heaven because you do not believe in the same God. My article gave enough reasons for why this is so.

            ” So… let me reiterate… I come from a different perspective that you… but truth is truth. If that truth is in your mouth and it is indeed truth then its from Jesus and I want it!! )”

            Then re-read my article or tell me what you have a problem with in it.

            “One of the primary distinctions is that you imply that modalists believe that God only exists, operates in one mode at a time.”

            Yes that is what modalism is. Please look it up.

            “God is not limited to the confines of time so the same way he talks to and communes with thousands of people at the same time, his being Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simultaneously (at the same time) is not only a non-issue, it is a characteristic of his “is-ness”. Wouldn’t you agree?”)”

            That has nothing to do with modalism. And I am not arguing against the fact God is omnipresent and can hear everyone and pay attention to them at the same time.

            “(Bro, again… you’re jumping to inaccurate conclusions. There is one avenue to SALVATION. The lord however speaks in many, many ways. By avenue I only meant, which I thought was clear by the context of my usage, that it is a way to see God. That’s different from salvation. You can only be be born again one way and that is Repent, be baptized in Jesus name and you shall receive the Holy Ghost.)”

            If you understand God wrong you do not have God. God only speaks through His Word in the Bible and it is clear if you read it that God is Triune and exists in 3 persons who are co-equal in power and authority and are One Being and essence. I think your friends are looking down the wrong avenue or street.

            “(Ok lets start here..you said this
            “Modalism contradicts what Christianity has historically accepted about the nature of God.” The operative phase here is “historically accepted”. If by history you’re referring to anything other than what the Jesus and the apostles said directly then the basis of your claim of what true Christianity is, it is suspect.”

            No my argument is from Scripture. My article has it all over the place in proper contexts. I wil refer to my article. When i said historically I mean that even the early church understood this and rejected the idea of a modalistic God. There have been a few heretical groups claiming such an idea that I mentioned in the article.

            “And since Modalism tells believers to do exactly what the Jesus and the apostles said do relative to salvation and to believe on him as they said to, I’m not seeing the issue with it.”

            Because its a non-existent God that denies Jesus Christ and behaves as if the Father suffered and not Christ. It takes away the sacrifice of the Son given by the Father. There are many reasons please read my article.

            ” Most of your statements are based on the Trinity being right (making inherently biased; non-objective and thereby invalid in making a case for embracing the Trinity.) or they are so subjective or presumptive that they have no “teeth”.)”

            Not true. My case for the Trinity is in my article please go to it and read it and provide reasons why I am wrong. You keep making baseless claims without a reason. And you wonder why I am a little abrasive with you….

          • Again, you’re missing it, friend. What matters here is I AM OPEN TO TRUTH regardless of my association or church.

            I’m not into titles because Jesus wasn’t into titles but I understand that we live in a world where people are sometimes unable communicate with labeling you something. And since I wanted our conversation the open from the start and since the closest thing to what I will believe is apostolic (and because I ascribe to salvation as the apostles did) I said “I’m apostolic” . No trickery or double talk here, friend. I’m just trying to answer and correct, were appropriate, in an effort to have a conversation with you that is edifying for you, me, and anyone else that reads our exchange.

            In your responses you keep saying read your article but your article has several sweeping incorrect assumptions that I keep trying to get you to answer directly, line by line but your response is… “read my article” If your only target was modalism (which I’m not so sure you have an accurate definition of) that would be one thing but you’re attacking, condemning Sabellianism, Onenes Pentecostals, , TD Jakes, UAC) as believing same way.
            However, if your definition of modalism is the correct, they are NOT the same.

            Rather than going through each and saying this is what they believe which is a bit subjective, I’m approaching this from what I know to be true, understand, and believe which is this:

            • The bible is the God’s word to his people. It is infallible
            • God is one and in this dispensation his name is Jesus.
            o There is no separation/division in terms of his diety ie who and what he has revealed himself to mankind to be. (none before me, none after me… beside me there is no God)
            o His being one is an eternal truth. (Here O Israel, the Lord our god is one)
            • God is omniscient and omnipresent
            • God is the Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Ghost in regeneration and is, in this dispensation, identified by only one name. That name is Jesus.
            • A man cannot see the kingdom of heaven unless he is born again as the scripture says. Specifically, being born of the water (baptized in Jesus name) and of the Spirit (being filled with the Holy Ghost evidenced by glossolalia)
            • Once born again person is to go beyond the foundations of salvation to maturity and perfection bringing forth much fruit through and in worship. Worship is a combination of prayer, fasting, communion, witnessing, fellowshipping, praising, giving (tithes/offering) and manifesting God’s divine nature.
            • Salvation is a process meaning it has a beginning (believing), requirements (repentence, born of water and spirit, holiness), and ending (with Jesus as a new creature)
            • This is what the bible teaches and is evidenced by the acts of the apostles of which we were instructed by Jesus to follow. Anything that instructs people to do differently is heresy
            These core fundamentals are consistent amongst Sabellius Christians, Modalists, the UPC, Oneness Pentecostals, and Apostolics.
            Would you address my bulleted point within a concise statement of agreement or disagreement with corresponding scripture if possible? Hoping to hear from you in this, light and I appreciate your patience. Blessings to you, bro

          • I am very familiar with the belief that Jesus is Himself , the Father , Son , and Holy Spirit . I am also familar with the belieff that Salvation is ffound in the Book of Actsx . However , there are too many verses of Scripture which prover that Jesus cannot be The Father and the Holy Spirit . There are also many verses of Scripture that prove that Salvation is through faith in Jesus Chirst and not through Baptism in Jesus name and spreaking in tongues as evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit . I do not waste my time arguing with anyone in the UPC or similar church organizastions because most of what they have to tell me shows just how ignorant of scripture they are .

          • This is great and thanks for the fast response.

            First off, lets be clear…I’m not mad at all, friend-smile. Nor am I complaining. I truly consider it a priviledge that the Lord would allow me to have audience and engagement with you.
            Now… full disclosure.. I think your manner is sarcastic, abrasive (thanks for admitting that-smile) and lacking meekness at times but it’s obvious you’ve been hurt by someone or something.
            How could I love the Jesus and hold that against you. The bible says to “bless and curse not” (Rom 12:14).

            Now let me correct your understanding of a few things I said

            I said “God is the Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Ghost in regeneration and is, in this dispensation, identified by only one name. That name is Jesus”
            You said “God is all of those at the same time for everything”

            (Correct, that is what I’m saying. God does not stop being the father to be the son or holy ghost or vice versa.
            In fact as as the eternal, omnipresent God who changes not (Mal 3:6) he is all those things at once. The rest of what you wrote on this point is moot as it’s not what I am saying)

            You said “And God is identified by all kinds of names. I guess you never read the Bible. Otherwise you would know this, unless you want to claim those names are actually names of God. If so prove it.”
            (Of course I concede that God is identified by other names in the bible. Don’t be silly-smile. I thought it was obvious when I said “dispensation” that I meant under the new covenant in relation to salvation.
            In the new covenant he’s referred to as Emmanuel-Matt 1:23, I AM John 8:58, HE John 8:28 among others but there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved Acts 4:12.
            And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him- Col 3:17

            You said “Born again means repentance and faith: The regeneration by God into a new man who is forgiven by Christ all completely worked by God, enabled by God and given by God for free. If you are claiming you must be baptized in water, specifically by water with someone saying “In Jesus name” you are attributing salvation to the works of man, not even the person being saved but you are given salvific power to the pastor who says “In the name of Jesus.” This is wrong and heretical.”

            (Your response here is all commentary. It’s not all false but it is misleading. You take some truths from the scriptures and construe them in a way that does not reflect what the apostles actually did.
            In fact, your words here actually condemn me for doing and saying what Jesus and the apostles did and said.
            Your words here elude to our NOT needing to be baptized even though this is the DIRECT OPPOSITE of what Jesus and the apostles both said and did. THAT my friend is heresy.
            For example.
            • Jesus said in John 3:5 “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
            o Born of water is baptism – I was baptized and tell people to be baptized just like Jesus said to so it is not heretical.

            • In Matt 28:19 Jesus told us to “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” I was baptized in the name of Jesus who is, as I said before simultaneously, the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Ghost in regeneration thereby following the direct instruction of Jesus so it is not heretical.

            • In Acts 2:38 Peter instructed to “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. “ I repented and was baptized in the name of Jesus just like he said which is in alignment with Christ’s instruction in John 3:3-8 and Matt 28:19 and further substantiated by Matt 16:19 so this is not heretical.

            • In Mark 16: Jesus says he that is baptized shall be saved. I was baptized as Jesus said so again, this is not heretical

            Also you need to understand something, bro. Baptism is about covenant.
            Baptism is to the new covenant what circumcision was to the old covenant.
            They both were/are

            1. Required by God to be in covenant

            2. Performed by someone else (not giving “Salvific” powers to anyone just obeying the command)

            3. Were/are unambiguous (there was is one way to do each according to the covenant no more)

            About your “criminal on the cross.”

            The bible does about this man except that he was a criminal on the cross next to Jesus. Maybe he was baptized unto repentance by John before. Maybe he was already circumcised. I don’t know nor do you. It really doesn’t really matter, though because this was before the new covenant was fulfilled (Jesus had not died, risen, and ascended yet) so the requirements of the new covenant signified in Acts did not apply.

            About your comments on “tongues’

            I’m gonna leave that to another discussion if the Lord allows. But here are some scriptures.
            Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
            12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

            John 3:8 The WIND bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit.

            Acts 2:1-3 1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
            2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty WIND, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
            3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
            4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

            Acts 10:45-47
            45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
            46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
            47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

            About your comments as to my suggesting that salvation is of works and What I meant by this statement
            “Once born again person is to go beyond the foundations of salvation to maturity and perfection bringing forth much fruit through and in worship. Worship is a combination of prayer, fasting, communion, witnessing, fellowshipping, praising, giving (tithes/offering) and manifesting God’s divine nature”

            (I’m really shocked that you took issue with this as its hard to believe a person who truly loves Jesus would want to live a lifestyle pleasing to him and to become like him.
            Here are some scriptures that speak to this
            Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
            2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
            Rom 12:1-2 1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
            2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. )

            You seem to assume that I saying a person is going to be perfect over night. I’m not. The things I mentioned are just what is in accordance with a holy lifestyle according to the scriptures.
            Living holy is a process of being conformed into what God is calling you to be. Where I am now is far different than when I was first born again.

            You also said “I believe God preserves the Christian into good works” (So do I)
            and when the Christian sins he is still forgiven (the bible says one is forgiven IF they repent. (Acts 2:38, Luke 17:3 , Acts 3:19 That’s what I believe. No repentance, no forgiveness)
            and will repent and always seek God over it and will persevere till the end. And if you don’t tithe you go to hell?
            (Tithing is a heart thing, bro. Kinda like receiving the Holy Ghost, giving up Christmas trees, Easter bunnies and Halloween. God’s stance on these is clear to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
            What you do with what you know, however is completely between you and God. Everyone has struggles and vices-I know I do-. Maybe tithing is one of yours.

            Oh and as far as preachers or churches abusing what they’ve been given, I certainly don’t approve neither does God.
            Here’s what he says in this light.
            Ecclesiastes 5:8 If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they).

            Blessing to you, bro. Blessings to you too, Bill.

          • I will ignore what you said about the other stuff because there is no point to talk further about it and I will get to the point and address your bullet points.

            • The bible is the God’s word to his people. It is infallible

            Yes.

            • God is one and in this dispensation his name is Jesus.

            God is ONE, but Jesus is one name. Also you could say Jesus Christ. God is also the Holy Spirit, also the Father, God is also called many many names in the Old Testament.

            o There is no separation/division in terms of his diety ie who and what he has revealed himself to
            mankind to be. (none before me, none after me… beside me there is no God)

            ok.

            o His being one is an eternal truth. (Here O Israel, the Lord our god is one)

            Yep.

            • God is omniscient and omnipresent

            Uh huh.

            • God is the Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Ghost in regeneration and is, in this dispensation, identified by only one name. That name is Jesus.

            God is all of those at the same time for everything. See you are proving you are a modalist by stating this. God is not acting as everything at the same time but switches modes depending on what He is doing. So stop denying that modalists don’t believe that you just proved it. Thanks. And God is identified by all kinds of names. I guess you never read the Bible. Otherwise you would know this, unless you want to claim those names are actually names of God. If so prove it.

            • A man cannot see the kingdom of heaven unless he is born again as the scripture says. Specifically, being born of the water (baptized in Jesus name) and of the Spirit (being filled with the Holy Ghost evidenced by glossolalia)

            Born again means repentance and faith: The regeneration by God into a new man who is forgiven by Christ all completely worked by God, enabled by God and given by God for free. If you are claiming you must be baptized in water, specifically by water with someone saying “In Jesus name” you are attributing salvation to the works of man, not even the person being saved but you are given salvific power to the pastor who says “In the name of Jesus.” This is wrong and heretical. So basically if the pastor does not say “Jesus name” you will still go to hell if you died right then. So how did the criminal on the cross who repented go to heaven then when Jesus said “This day you will be with me in paradise.” What did they get off the cross and baptize him and then get back on and die? I don’t see that in the Bible. And then saying you MUST speak in tongues is nowhere found in the bible. Speaking in tongues only happened about 4 times in the book of Acts and many people were said to be saved and nowhere is tongues mentioned. Also tongues according to Acts 2 is actual world languages, not babbling nonsense.

            • Once born again person is to go beyond the foundations of salvation to maturity and perfection bringing forth much fruit through and in worship. Worship is a combination of prayer, fasting, communion, witnessing, fellowshipping, praising, giving (tithes/offering) and manifesting God’s divine nature.

            So you are saying a person has to work hard and be holy to be saved or else he will go to hell anyway? What are you saying by this? I believe God preserves the Christian into good works and when the Christian sins he is still forgiven and will repent and always seek God over it and will persevere till the end. And if you don’t tithe you go to hell? How convenient for the pastors so they can make money eh? TD Jakes comes to mind.

            • Salvation is a process meaning it has a beginning (believing), requirements (repentence, born of water and spirit, holiness), and ending (with Jesus as a new creature)

            Nope. Salvation is instant at repentance. You are promoting a godless belief of works righteousness no better than the Catholics. It is equally dead.

            • This is what the bible teaches and is evidenced by the acts of the apostles of which we were instructed by Jesus to follow. Anything that instructs people to do differently is heresy
            These core fundamentals are consistent amongst Sabellius Christians, Modalists, the UPC, Oneness Pentecostals, and Apostolics.

            No it’s not. The heresy is all of those group’s teachings.

            Looks like you went online and copy and pasted from a Modalist website these bullet points.

  21. I have not done very much posting because I get very angry and frustrated reading responses to Scriptural truth that do not line up with Scripture . I can see from many of the posts that people want to argue about what they believe but when they get a response from someone that refutes what they believe and the refutation is based upon Scripture , they are not willing to accept correction .I can see why the UPC and similar church orgainzations are met with so much opposition form Bible believing Christians , In my local area , the UPC is not allowed in the Eureka Rescue Mission . The reason is because they create disunity in tthe Body of Christ among the various churches who hold nihtly services on a rotating schedule .. 2 of the common areas where the UPC is known in my local area for being divisive is their opposition to the Trinity and Salvation . I am pleased to say that the Eureak Rescue Mission has done very nicely without the UPC .

    • Right on Bill! Just as you see the guy above who is claiming he has a problem and upset at how I respond he has yet to actually argue against my article itself with the scripture I used. Oh well…

    • Yes the UPC is just a cult that profane’s Christ and is antichrist in general. They are very annoying and full of animosity to the Bible. They always ignore scriptures, like ion the case of areasonableanswer, he continues to make baseless claims without posting scripture. He does not address my article in th slightest then gets mad when I am showing him how bad his arguments are. I find it annoying. I don’t respect people unless they respect me by addressing the actual article or what I claim.

  22. This is great and thanks for the fast response.

    First off, lets be clear…I’m not mad at all, friend-smile. Nor am I complaining. I truly consider it a priviledge that the Lord would allow me to have audience and engagement with you.
    Now… full disclosure.. I think your manner is sarcastic, abrasive (thanks for admitting that-smile) and lacking meekness at times but it’s obvious you’ve been hurt by someone or something.
    How could I love the Jesus and hold that against you. The bible says to “bless and curse not” (Rom 12:14).

    Now let me correct your understanding of a few things I said

    I said “God is the Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Ghost in regeneration and is, in this dispensation, identified by only one name. That name is Jesus”
    You said “God is all of those at the same time for everything”

    (Correct, that is what I’m saying. God does not stop being the father to be the son or holy ghost or vice versa.
    In fact as as the eternal, omnipresent God who changes not (Mal 3:6) he is all those things at once. The rest of what you wrote on this point is moot as it’s not what I am saying)

    You said “And God is identified by all kinds of names. I guess you never read the Bible. Otherwise you would know this, unless you want to claim those names are actually names of God. If so prove it.”
    (Of course I concede that God is identified by other names in the bible. Don’t be silly-smile. I thought it was obvious when I said “dispensation” that I meant under the new covenant in relation to salvation.
    In the new covenant he’s referred to as Emmanuel-Matt 1:23, I AM John 8:58, HE John 8:28 among others but there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved Acts 4:12.
    And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him- Col 3:17

    You said “Born again means repentance and faith: The regeneration by God into a new man who is forgiven by Christ all completely worked by God, enabled by God and given by God for free. If you are claiming you must be baptized in water, specifically by water with someone saying “In Jesus name” you are attributing salvation to the works of man, not even the person being saved but you are given salvific power to the pastor who says “In the name of Jesus.” This is wrong and heretical.”

    (Your response here is all commentary. It’s not all false but it is misleading. You take some truths from the scriptures and construe them in a way that does not reflect what the apostles actually did.
    In fact, your words here actually condemn me for doing and saying what Jesus and the apostles did and said.
    Your words here elude to our NOT needing to be baptized even though this is the DIRECT OPPOSITE of what Jesus and the apostles both said and did. THAT my friend is heresy.
    For example.
    • Jesus said in John 3:5 “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
    o Born of water is baptism – I was baptized and tell people to be baptized just like Jesus said to so it is not heretical.

    • In Matt 28:19 Jesus told us to “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” I was baptized in the name of Jesus who is, as I said before simultaneously, the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Ghost in regeneration thereby following the direct instruction of Jesus so it is not heretical.

    • In Acts 2:38 Peter instructed to “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. “ I repented and was baptized in the name of Jesus just like he said which is in alignment with Christ’s instruction in John 3:3-8 and Matt 28:19 and further substantiated by Matt 16:19 so this is not heretical.

    • In Mark 16: Jesus says he that is baptized shall be saved. I was baptized as Jesus said so again, this is not heretical

    Also you need to understand something, bro. Baptism is about covenant.
    Baptism is to the new covenant what circumcision was to the old covenant.
    They both were/are

    1. Required by God to be in covenant

    2. Performed by someone else (not giving “Salvific” powers to anyone just obeying the command)

    3. Were/are unambiguous (there was is one way to do each according to the covenant no more)

    About your “criminal on the cross.”

    The bible does about this man except that he was a criminal on the cross next to Jesus. Maybe he was baptized unto repentance by John before. Maybe he was already circumcised. I don’t know nor do you. It really doesn’t really matter, though because this was before the new covenant was fulfilled (Jesus had not died, risen, and ascended yet) so the requirements of the new covenant signified in Acts did not apply.

    About your comments on “tongues’

    I’m gonna leave that to another discussion if the Lord allows. But here are some scriptures.
    Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
    12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

    John 3:8 The WIND bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit.

    Acts 2:1-3 1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
    2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty WIND, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
    3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    Acts 10:45-47
    45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

    About your comments as to my suggesting that salvation is of works and What I meant by this statement
    “Once born again person is to go beyond the foundations of salvation to maturity and perfection bringing forth much fruit through and in worship. Worship is a combination of prayer, fasting, communion, witnessing, fellowshipping, praising, giving (tithes/offering) and manifesting God’s divine nature”

    (I’m really shocked that you took issue with this as its hard to believe a person who truly loves Jesus would want to live a lifestyle pleasing to him and to become like him.
    Here are some scriptures that speak to this
    Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
    2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
    Rom 12:1-2 1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
    2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. )

    You seem to assume that I saying a person is going to be perfect over night. I’m not. The things I mentioned are just what is in accordance with a holy lifestyle according to the scriptures.
    Living holy is a process of being conformed into what God is calling you to be. Where I am now is far different than when I was first born again.

    You also said “I believe God preserves the Christian into good works” (So do I)
    and when the Christian sins he is still forgiven (the bible says one is forgiven IF they repent. (Acts 2:38, Luke 17:3 , Acts 3:19 That’s what I believe. No repentance, no forgiveness)
    and will repent and always seek God over it and will persevere till the end. And if you don’t tithe you go to hell?
    (Tithing is a heart thing, bro. Kinda like receiving the Holy Ghost, giving up Christmas trees, Easter bunnies and Halloween. God’s stance on these is clear to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
    What you do with what you know, however is completely between you and God. Everyone has struggles and vices-I know I do-. Maybe tithing is one of yours.

    Oh and as far as preachers or churches abusing what they’ve been given, I certainly don’t approve neither does God.
    Here’s what he says in this light.
    Ecclesiastes 5:8 If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they).

    Blessing to you, bro. Blessings to you too, Bill.

    • “(Correct, that is what I’m saying. God does not stop being the father to be the son or holy ghost or vice versa.
      In fact as as the eternal, omnipresent God who changes not (Mal 3:6) he is all those things at once. The rest of what you wrote on this point is moot as it’s not what I am saying)”

      So then you admit the Trinity is the truth?

      Also did you not know that Jesus is what created the world? You said the Father is what created things. John 2 says the Word created all things, then later in verse 14 it says the Word became flesh who is Jesus Christ. It is clearly not the Father creating. Colossians 1:16 also teaches this. If God truly does not change then God does not behave as the Father when he deiced to do one thing then the Son as another. If God truly does not change the triune God is what actually makes sense. A Triune God does not need to change at all in order to work.
      If you are saying God is all 3 at the same time then you are speaking of the Trinity. If you are saying He has to be the Father when creating, the SOn when redeeming that is a 1-person-God that changes modes. Thus, modalism. Why can’t you figure this out?

      “In the new covenant he’s referred to as Emmanuel-Matt 1:23, I AM John 8:58, HE John 8:28 among others but there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved Acts 4:12.
      And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him- Col 3:17”

      This does not matter. God is God with many names. There is no law that says “Jesus is God’s name and if you don’t refer to Him as Jesus you are going to hell.” Jesus Christ is the Son who died on the cross and was punished by the Father for our sins. We must acknowledge this and believe Christ redeemed us and call on His name for salvation since Jesus was who died for our sins. The Father did not die for our sins so claiming He did, which is what you seem to be saying by stating God is 1 person but acts in different ways, you would be wrong. Thus the point I made in my article.

      “• Jesus said in John 3:5 “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.””

      If this is true how did the criminal on the cross get saved? He was not baptized.
      This verse is speaking figuratively of spiritual cleaning. This is figurative speech much like the old testament, Example ezekiel 36:25-27 where water is used figuratively for spiritual cleansing being sprinkled on israel. Also it is not refering to water from physical birth either.

      “o Born of water is baptism – I was baptized and tell people to be baptized just like Jesus said to so it is not heretical.”

      No its not.

      “• In Matt 28:19 Jesus told us to “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” I was baptized in the name of Jesus who is, as I said before simultaneously, the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Ghost in regeneration thereby following the direct instruction of Jesus so it is not heretical.”

      That verse says all 3 names as if God is 3 in One. It does not say JESUS ONLY. You cannot get that from this verse and it is obvious. Your idea of God being one thing in one way and another in another way is purely fiction. Like you said, God does not change.

      “• In Acts 2:38 Peter instructed to “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. “ I repented and was baptized in the name of Jesus just like he said which is in alignment with Christ’s instruction in John 3:3-8 and Matt 28:19 and further substantiated by Matt 16:19 so this is not heretical.”

      Verses do not say “Must be baptized in the name of Jesus only or else…” What it does teach is that Jesus Christ is the name by which we are saved because He is the Son of God who willingly became a sacrifice for us. The point I made in my article states this. If you believe the Father is also the Son you are not giving proper credit to the Son of God who is not the Father.

      “• In Mark 16: Jesus says he that is baptized shall be saved. I was baptized as Jesus said so again, this is not heretical”

      This does not teach baptism has to happen for someone to be saved. It does say people who believe will be baptized out of obligation and witnessing their conversion to the world. But then the condemned are only punished for unbelief not becuase they were not baptized. If baptism was that important it would say “Those who are not baptized will go to hell.” It does not say anything like that.

      “Also you need to understand something, bro. Baptism is about covenant.
      Baptism is to the new covenant what circumcision was to the old covenant.
      They both were/are”

      Water baptism is not. But salvation through Christ and the baptism of the SPirit which is given to all who repent is. And it is not babbling in tongues either.

      “1. Required by God to be in covenant”

      Nope

      “2. Performed by someone else (not giving “Salvific” powers to anyone just obeying the command)”

      yes it does. It gives the pastor or priest the power of salvation by his words. If he chooses not to say Jesus then the person is not saved according to your logic. But if the pastor says Jesus then the person is saved. This is the absurdity of your claim.

      “3. Were/are unambiguous (there was is one way to do each according to the covenant no more)””

      uh ok

      “About your “criminal on the cross.”

      The bible does about this man except that he was a criminal on the cross next to Jesus. Maybe he was baptized unto repentance by John before. Maybe he was already circumcised. I don’t know nor do you. It really doesn’t really matter, though because this was before the new covenant was fulfilled (Jesus had not died, risen, and ascended yet) so the requirements of the new covenant signified in Acts did not apply.”

      Both of the criminals on the cross at one point were mocking God openly. Only one decided to stop and then repented for his sins. There is no way he was baptized once before, you have to make that up in order to fit your theology. Circumcision also does not save you as Paul said over and over again in Romans and Galatians. The logical explanation is that baptism by water is not important, only repentance is important for salvation and the man went to heaven by his faith. All you are doing is making “what ifs” up which is not evidence for your view.

      “About your comments on “tongues’

      I’m gonna leave that to another discussion if the Lord allows. But here are some scriptures.
      Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
      12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.”

      Thats not tongues according to apostolics. There is no babbling nor is that verse about salvation its about judgment.

      “4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”

      Yep speaking other world languages that people understand from their counties. Not about salvation.

      “Acts 10:45-47
      45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
      46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
      47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”

      So now they received the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized? I thought you had to be baptized to be saved. This proves salvation is not by water. Unless you are going to claim the Holy Spirit enters people inside of them and possesses them to babble in tongues while they are unregenerate sinners because they dont have water baptism yet.

      Also in Acts 2 3,000 people got saved and nowhere does it say they spoke in tongues. However it only says the people in the house spoke in tongues who were proclaiming God. So tongues was a sign not that people are saved but that they spoke the truth. The people who were there heard it and repented.

      “(I’m really shocked that you took issue with this as its hard to believe a person who truly loves Jesus would want to live a lifestyle pleasing to him and to become like him.”

      I dont know but I think you meant to put a “not” in there somewhere. If so, you are using a straw man. That is not my claim.

      “You seem to assume that I saying a person is going to be perfect over night. I’m not. The things I mentioned are just what is in accordance with a holy lifestyle according to the scriptures.
      Living holy is a process of being conformed into what God is calling you to be. Where I am now is far different than when I was first born again.”

      Straw man again. I did not claim that. I claimed salvation is instant and secure forever. Not that it is a process of a bunch of works.

      “(Tithing is a heart thing, bro. Kinda like receiving the Holy Ghost, giving up Christmas trees, Easter bunnies and Halloween. God’s stance on these is clear to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
      What you do with what you know, however is completely between you and God. Everyone has struggles and vices-I know I do-. Maybe tithing is one of yours.”

      Thus I still claim you believe in works righteousness. Yuo have just proved it again.

  23. Hi again, Friend,

    thanks for the response.

    I’m realizing that this may not be the right forum to make the kind of progress I was hoping for.
    With most of things I say and even with the scriptures quoted you you either

    take them out of context (grammatically and/or scripturally)

    take waaay to much latitude and assumption

    you’re just so spastic and belligerent about something I’ve written that you run off in commentary.

    I appreciate your passion and engagement and will continue to pray that the Lord help you channel it in a way that better reflects his nature among other things (I appreciate your prayers for me as well. Thanks in advance-smile).
    Should you or anyone else for that matter wish to reason about the the scriptures in an effort to better understand and edify you can reach via my blog site “areasonableanswer.com”

    Also, Id be glad to have a chat, phone, or video conference with you or anyone about this and other topics discussed here.
    I think the increased immediacy of those mediums would be better suited for curtailing and exchange such as ours allowing nonsense commentary to be curtail quickly.

    Blessings to you, Friend
    in Jesus name.

    Colossians 3:17
    And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    • Basically you cannot refute my counter arguments. Also you cannot refute my article itself and are realizing it. Ok have fun bye.

  24. Pingback: Debate with a guy who calls modalism heresy | A Reasonable Answer

  25. Pingback: Debate with a guy who calls modalism heresy | A Reasonable Answer

  26. If you found my article helpful so you can understand modalism, how I responded below should not at all altar this nor is it logical to conclude you cannot trust what you claim was helpful simply because of how I responded.

    Also that verse is out of context as nothing I write in my article was out of “selfish ambition.” I think what you are trying to accuse me of is being somewhat abrasive to the heretics who kept posting insults and nonsense and were spamming my article. If you have a problem with how I responded you must have a problem with Jesus and the Apostles for they did not shy away from being blunt or bold towards people who are obviously trying to cause problems and not actually intelligently debate. Please get thicker skin. Have a nice day.

  27. Quick question to ask yourself. Did you prayerfully consider my rebuke? Christ was the perfectly righteous son of proverbs. We should desire to be like him. Proverbs 15:28 The heart of the righteous ponders how to answer, But the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things. It took you only 7 minutes to reply. My motive is for the good of YOUR soul. You should prayerfully consider the possibility that you have made the correctness of your doctrine an idol. We are saved by Grace alone. God is opposed to the proud but gives grace to the humble. Please as a sister in Christ before you respond defensively I urge you to pray psalm 139: 23-24“Search me, O God, and know my heart;
    Try me and know my anxious thoughts;
    24 And see if there be any [a]hurtful way in me,
    And lead me in the everlasting way.

    By your responses it appears as though you may be unteachable. But I pray that is not the case. You’re blog could help many but please display wisdom from above. I am not one of those opposing your belief and yet you attack me as though I am. Your response should be in line with proverbs 9:8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you. You may disagree with my concern but you should be thankful and prayerfully consider the rebuke.

    Clarification: My rebuke was not referring to your article but the responses in your comment section below. Let me take just one response you made as an example.

    “No I DID read your whole comment. You just have no basis to argue against [ME] and have thus been proven wrong completely and now you are rubbing away with your tail between your legs instead of admitting [YOU ARE WRONG] and repenting.”

    Before you respond stop and look up. Ask God “Lord, how can I glorify YOU in this situation?”

    May is also suggest a helpful resource: http://www.gty.org/resources/Sermons/80-189

    I’m praying for you.

    To God be the glory,
    Stephanie

    • I did consider your rebuke and the first one you wrote. I considered it, and it was wrong. I am not unteachable, if I was I would never have learned as much as I did about the bible from a lot of pastors and Godly teachers.
      You fail to list the posts that the modalist heretics were saying to me. My response was justified and it is also true. You personally just have an issue with “harsher” tones. It is something you should work on. I did not spout hate or evil and I certainly am not a fool.

      And your “rebuke” does undermine my article and only feeds fire to the heretics who hate solid doctrine and hate God. If you cared about truth so much you would have a little stronger boldness in you instead of being so soft and squishy and afraid to confront people. If someone comes to my blog and starts accusing me of things that are not true, and also repeats over and over the same tired arguments without addressing the actual issues they actually are being ignorant and thus deserve to be told so.

      I do not agree with your opinion. I also will say you are in the wrong for rebuking me this way and I do not accept it.

      And yes the strange fire conference was great and yes steve lawson was great…nothing I write is for my own glory or to be proud. I can only boast in the Lord and understand his grace in me. But I write my articles and defend them for the love of the truth. Christians like you only cause more problems than help the cause of the truth by sidetracking an issue and allowing the enemy to say “Aha! this guy IS wrong and his article is also wrong because his own people do not appreciate him!” That is what you are doing and I will not stand for it.

      • Whitedragonawa ,
        When I first started reading some of the things you were saying , I thought that you were being too harsh but then I rcame to
        realize that I was iin reality being too easy going in the way that approach certain heresies .. It is human nature to say what people want to hear and while that may look good on the surface , it does nore harm than good .

        Here is an example of a distinction of God the Father , Jesus , and the Holy Spirit . Anyone who can read this and tell me that Jesus is all 3 cannot possibly be accepting what the verse says John 15 : 23 Jesus is speaking , Here is what He says : ” When the Counsellor ( Holy Spirit ) comes , whom I will send to you from the Father , the Spirit of truth ( Holy Spirit ) , who goes out from the Father , he will testify about me . ”

        Here is another verse where Jesus is speaking :
        Acts 1 : 4 ” Do not leave Jerusalem , but wait for the gift my Father p;romised , , which you have heard me speak about . For John Baptized with water , but in a few days you will be Baptized with the Holy Spirit .”

        I fail to see how any can claim to believe in the true God revealed in Scripture and yet deny what the Scriptures say about the true God . I have noticed that many people who deny the Trinity use sources outside of Scripture to prove that the Trinity is a false doctrine . I would like to know when sources outside of Scripture became a basis for doctrine and reproos since according to Scripture , Scripture is the basis of doctrine and reproof .

        I have noticed that alot of the very things I say in my Blog regarding the distinction of God the Father m Jesus , and the Holy Spirit , are the same thngs that Bible believeing Christians in various church organizations say . I did not get my ideas from any source outside of Scripture . I simplly read Scripture and accepted what is there . It appears that many other people have done the same thing that I did .

        I do not like to put anyone down personally but I must say that the ignorance that I see on your Blog is incredible . I have noticed from my 15 years experience as a Oneness Pentecostal , that the people who tend to argue are the very people who have only studied what is taught in Oneness Pentecostal church organizations . It is hard to believe that some of those very organizations claim to represent the One True Church where very few people are going to be saved and yet they have so much heresy in addition to Modalism that it is actually sickening sometimes . I see many sincere people trying to live holy lives and yet they are trapped in heresy and telling people who believe in the Trinity that they are going to Hell .

        I am sure that what I have said is to harsh for many people but what I have said is the truth if Scripture is the basis for truth .

        • AMEN!!!!!!!! That is great to hear!! And those verses are very good examples of modalism’s difficulty. The UPC poeple and Apostolics cannot answer that legitimately. They have to make something up to say Jesus is all 3 when Jesus differentiates himself from the Holy Spirit and the Father.

          Also being harsh or somewhat abrasive and bold is what the bible calls us to do. Titus 1:11 says it is necessary to silence false teaching. Titus 1:13 states, “Rebuke them sharply!”

          The point is you do it out of concern for the truth, to promote what is correct to show people the true gospel. This is done out of love. Engage them in intelligent debate and discussion. Even arguing. This is done out of love nd be gentle, but when they cross the line and start blaspheming, using illogical straw men and having the goal to frustrate you then you step it up as according to the bible and rebuke sharply, and silence people. Then walk away because you should not waste time throwing pearls before swine.

          The others who engage in discussion and have a goal to actually talk about the issues are the ones you should worry about.

          People like Stephanie Farrell Kelly do not understand that and assume it is a sin to give what you get when heretics and hateful decievers attack you. No the examples in scripture are not what kelly claims. She is wrongly rebuking me and I take issue with her for it and she is inhibiting the truth of the gospel to be exposed by masking it and claiming im hating or “demonically inspired to selfish ambition.” The verses she quoted state that, because she used them out of context and is full of false humility.

        • @Bill,
          I think you make some good points here specifically this
          “I would like to know when sources outside of Scripture became a basis for doctrine and reproos since according to Scripture , Scripture is the basis of doctrine and reproof .” and “ I simply read Scripture and accepted what is there.”

          Your believing in the Trinity is really no different than theories on dinosaurs or “pre-trib vs post-trib” or what fruit was actually eaten in the garden or such like in that they are, when pondered by sincere hearts, examples of men trying to make sense of what they’ve read, encountered and/or seen in context to the scriptures. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s when people go too far and begin to make “theories” into a dogma that contradicts scriptural example which are an expression of text, that’s when it becomes heresy. That’s what Trinitarian doctrine is ,for it tells people to do things differently that the apostles did.

          Let’s put the commentaries aside and tell people what the apostles told people to be born again – “Repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus and you shall be filled with the Holy Ghost for the promise is unto you and to all your children afar off. Even as many and the Lord shall call”. That’s what I tell people – what’s heretical about that??

          To me it embodies what you wrote “I simply read Scripture and accepted what is there.”

  28. Whitedragonawa,
    I highly commend both your effort and your attempt to both defend and promote orthodoxy. Thank you for this,

    With this said, I am sure you would appreciate some critique in order to grow, so I would like to say that it is an un-careful choice of wording to refer to Jesus as a “separate person”. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all distinct persons of the Godhead, but they are of the same essence. They are distinct, but not separate. As the Athanasian Creed states, “we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.” For this reason, historically, Christians correctly refer to the Persons as distinct and not separate. Jesus is distinct from the Father, but not separate. They, with the Spirit, are indeed one. Distinct, not separate.
    Keep fighting the good fight brother.

    Pro Christo et Ecclesia,
    Jacob McAuley

    • When I said separate I meant that the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy spirit is not the Son, and likewise not the Father etc. So they are not the same person of the Trinity. But I think what you are saying is correct and distinct is a better term so thanks for the heads up.

    • Here’s what I don’t understand then of what you say as a supporter of the trinity. If you concede that God is distinct persons of the Godhead, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit but they are of the same essence. Why do you see it as different to say that God is distinct in operation as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit but the same God (One)? Meaning what God does as Father is different that what he does as Son or Holy Spirit hence the reason of manifesting as such.

      • Because it is different. Trinitarian believes that the Persons of God are distinct and separate from one another an are not each other at any point whatsoever, yet they are all the same God in One. They are all 3 God at the same time. God is all 3 at the same time, always.

        Modalists believe there is only 1 person of God and God is not in 3 persons, but 3 modes of 1 person. So this one person of God changes his mode/shape/form/characteristic, identity depending on his desire and is never all 3 or any 2 at the same time.

        They are very different. The Bible teaches God in 3 persons which is the Trinity. The bible does not teach modalism. Read my article for further understanding.

        • I’ve seen you say ‘Read my Article’ on several different comments here. Are you referring to the article above; or is there a different/original article (or more than one) you wrote with regards to this topic? If so, would you have a link you could provide to this article? I’m having a hard time finding it…

          • When i say “Read my article” I am talking to people who are arguing against me. They are not addressing the actual points in my article, but instead are insulting or using straw man arguments and demanding I explain things. I already explained it all in my article so I tell them to actually read it and argue the points I made in the actual article itself.

            So if you read the blog post above, then you have already read my article.

  29. I don’t think any one of us has what could be called a 110% grasp on the nature of God; in fact, I think God has issues with both Trinitarians and Modalists. And at the end of the day, only He gets to decide whose theology is damnable and whose isn’t.

    • Actually that is not true. God only has issues with modalism. Know why? because it is flat out wrong and unbiblical whereas trinitarianism takes the facts in scripture and applies it to their theology. And God will judge it as damnable and he will judge your lukewarmness as damnable to if you do not repent and follow the truth.

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  32. “If someone rejects that there is a Person of the Son and instead claims there is only one person that changes, and the Son did not exist until He was manifest in the Incarnation of Christ, then there is no atoning sacrifice that actually happened since they reject the real Person of Jesus, the Son of God who actually exists and has existed eternally. Grudem (2000) affirms”
    White Dragon; can you explain this a little further/simpler? I think I almost ‘get’ what you’re saying; but I just wanna be sure.
    Are you saying something along the lines of “If the Son didn’t exist until ‘God made that part of Himself appear’ we cannot say that Jesus Christ paid for our sins”?
    I have a dear friend of mine who seems to be quite Modalist; English is not her first language, and I’m trying to explain to her, in simple terms, why her view of the trinity is wrong; and how God can exist in three distinct person, and yet still be one God at the same time.

    • Well the main point is, The BIBLE teaches the Trinity. Whether we can understand it 100% or not is irrelevant. Actually NOBODY can understand it. It is part of God’s eternal depth that we will continually be learning about in heaven forever. Nobody can fully, 100% understand God in every way. Only God can understand himself and reveal what knowledge He wants and withhold whatever He wants.

      If a person believes in Modalism they are worshiping a false God and not the true god. It is idolatry.

      If they say Jesus is not a seperate Person of God they are saying that the Jesus of the Bible does not exist. Only a form/morphing/shifting of one person exists. If they believe only a shifting modal God exists then they are saying literally that “Jesus Christ the Son of God as a distinct person does not exist.” They are not worshiping Christ, but a false god.

  33. I stumbled in to this heresy by mistake almost 9 years ago (partially thanks to my Muslim “friends”), only recently realized it and as a result of it, became gravely concerned for years that I had Blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. I also became very resentful and hateful towards others, and found it impossible to forgive even the smallest of grievances. In reality, my problem was that I had confounded the Trinity, and with it the crucifiction. God sent me three Christian friends to help me address this heresy, but all of them failed: you see, I did not speak the heresy, not recognizing what I had done, but instead spoke of my concern about Blaspheming against the Holy Spirit (a concept which, having confounded the Trinity, I could not really understand). I was hysterical, and they were overwhelmed, and either did not see themselves the real issue, or didn’t want to, and probably didn’t really love me. Today, all three of them are now Atheists, having failed me and being found fruitless, cut off and withered, and of the two who I’ve had significant contact with since then, I don’t see the light of happiness or life in their eyes anymore.

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