Sleeping Giant Is Proof The Christian Hardcore Scene Is Corrupt With The New Spirituality And Not Biblical Faith

Sleeping Giant Is Proof The Christian Hardcore Scene Is Corrupt with The New Spirituality And Not Biblical Faith

        Sleeping Giant is a band that got its start and major popularity from being signed on Facedown Records which is a Christian heavy music label (currently they are signed to Ain’t No Grave Records). The lead singer’s name is Tommy Green and he preaches a lot and tells people about spiritual experiences that he claims he’s had, and he yells a lot in his music. He promotes the New Spirituality with all of the charismatic excesses and supernatural visions, miracles, signs, wonders etc…His new book called Religio-cide should tell you something about his agenda…

Introduction

        In 2011 he was invited to speak at Biola University at one of their chapels. I graduated from Biola University in 2009 and I already saw the way Biola chapels were headed with the Contemplative Spirituality/Spiritual Formation New Age teachings and Lectio Divina and the embracing of supernatural experiences over Bible study. You can read how I felt after I graduated in 2009 here.

Here is a video of Tommy Green preaching at Biola:

        As a Christian I do not support and cannot support his ministry or his band. I believe Tommy Green is not qualified for ministry and is teaching outrageous things that are dangerous and destructive to healthy Christian spirituality and faith. He says really convincing sounding things for the ear that is untrained in Scripture. But do not let soothing words and emotionally sincere words convince you. He is deceived either by his own mind, or the demonic. I am a fan of heavy music and was involved in the hardcore punk scene growing up (you can read a blog post about some of my experiences here) and I understand the desire for spiritually uplifting, and Christ-centered, gospel driven, hardcore music ministry. But I do not support it at the expense of proper biblical interpretations, solid theology, and sound doctrine. How else can a person be saved if they have a faulty understanding of the Good News and a weak foundation for faith? Godly faith must be Truth centered in all its objectivity because souls are at stake and it is the difference between life and death— eternal salvation and eternal damnation. Matters of God are very serious and Christians must be responsible and hold everything up to the standard of the Word of God (Scriptural revelation).

        I would also like to briefly state that some people do have legitimate pain caused by typical church people who rejected them or are not allowing them to be used by God so many people are struggling with church life. They feel like misfits and are outcasts by popular culture. But this does not discount traditional church or careful theological studies. This does not mean that all traditional churches are full of jerks or bad people. We do have a serious, and I mean serious problem with church life in this country and it is very hard to find a church that feeds its flock. Even so….

The Bible is the only objective and valid form of truth for our spiritual lives

        As Christians, even “punk,” “hardcore kids,” or “scene kids” (or whatever is the cool term is today) or just a general fan of heavy music who is a Christian; or anyone who feels like an outcast; or has been hurt by church people; or hurt by other Christians; those who do not feel accepted by normal society; it does not matter how bad your life was or how bad you have been hurt. There is no excuse to believe every wind of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14) that any persons claims. I feel much like you, and I have been hurt too; but still, we MUST….WE MUST ONLY base our theology and ideas of spiritual matters on what is objectively true: THE BIBLE: the objective Word of God. There is no excuse not to! And no real answers for life’s struggles outside of the Bible (God’s objective revelation). Anything else cannot be trusted as fact and there is no way to prove it. This is not putting God in a box, or throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But if that box is the Bible, then yes, God is in a box!

        God is revealed through His word. John 1:1-2 specifically states that God is the Word. John 1:14 further states that Jesus Christ is the Word incarnated in the flesh. If God is the Word why would He work outside of what He is? The Bible is God’s revealed Word just as when God spoke Creation into existence. If we have God’s completed revelation to man in the Bible we do not need anything else, nor would have, nor does God send any other Scriptures. Revealed Scripture itself is sufficient and teaches us everything we need to know, and it equips us with every tool and weapon we need in this life to live for God (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

        Now that the Bible is complete and all wisdom and mysteries of godliness, and all knowledge has been revealed to the world (Ephesians 1:9, Ephesians 3:3-4, Colossians 1:26-27), God and His truth are not currently revealed by someone claiming access to a visionary realm. Logically, if someone is claiming supernatural stories or revelations or ideas about God then they are equating themselves with the Apostles and authors of revealed Scripture. When people start claiming God spoke to them, or some vision they had revealed information about the Divine they are claiming more revelation from God and thus equating it with anything else God revealed in the Bible. If the Bible is what we base our faith on, and all revelation is complete then you cannot trust what other people claim outside of it. There is no way to prove any supernatural, mental experiences someone might have had. Such people are “false-apostles” (2 Corinthians 11:13), or false messengers or false teachers.

Do not let anyone disqualify you who claims access to a visionary realm

        Tommy Green claims to have gone to heaven and back while he sat in a Starbucks in Redlands, California. This is ridiculous and is similar to what many false prophets who preach outright heresy claim (Bob Jones, Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts, and many TBN preachers and also various charismatic hipsters). It is wise to flee from people who use tactics as such evil men. Anyone adding ideas to the Bible is in serious error. Such people constantly disqualify rational thinking Christians who do not give into emotionalism, or allow amazing “testimonies” of supernatural experiences. They get upset. As Tommy Green said in the video about people saying such experiences are wrong and New Age. He said to not let anyone tell you that such experiences are not correct or tell you that they are New Age. In reality they actually are New Age and Occult experiences. Such visions, dreams, miracles, supernatural being contact and even Christ contact have occurred all over New Age circles and are explained in New Age teachings. He claims it was the Holy Spirit, and New Age cannot do what the Holy Spirit can do. But his “holy spirit” cannot possibly be the true Holy Spirit because what he explains is nothing different than other New Age mystics’ trips to heaven, and is even similar to alien abduction stories (especially with objects implanted or transplanted into people). Men like Tommy Green are always trying to guilt trip biblical Christians into accepting their spirituality and experiences as valid. They constantly try and disqualify Christians who base their beliefs strictly on the Bible. Colossians 2:18-19 states,

“Let no one disqualify you, insisting on ascetic practices and the worship of angels, claiming access to a visionary realm and inflated without cause by his unspiritual mind. He doesn’t hold on to the head, from whom the whole body, nourished and held together by its ligaments and tendons, develops with growth from God.”

        There is also absolutely no way Tommy Green saw Jesus Christ. Who he saw had to be something in his own mind, a delusion, or an actual demonic being pretending to be Jesus. Scripture is clear that no one has seen Christ in 1 Timothy 6:16 where it says Jesus is “…the only One who has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom none of mankind has seen or can see…” Now according to Tommy Green’s testimony he claims he was in heaven and the light was “like sunset the entire time.” That to me shows a low level of light since a sunset is darker than say the afternoon. That is not unapproachable light. The being he saw was in a darker (obviously counterfeit) light. The verse says that none of mankind has seen Christ (obviously after His ascension into Heaven and glorious transformation). It also says no one can see Christ. So Tommy Green is claiming he saw Christ which goes against Scripture. If Tommy was in the presence of Christ he would be dead because of the unapproachable light and God’s glory that not even Moses could see. Such charismatic experiences constantly go against Scripture, and Tommy does not seem to know His Bible enough to reject such visions. Paul wrote 1 Timothy and Paul is also said to have gone to the third heaven and saw things he is not allowed to speak about, yet this verse in Timothy also shows that even Paul did not see Christ since “none of mankind has seen or can see” Him. Charismatics like Tommy explain sensational stories far beyond anything the Apostles themselves were allowed to experience. It is obviously a lie and Tommy never went to heaven and instead was speaking with a demon.

        Another issue is that Tommy Green is a divorced man. I do not know the reason for his divorce except for what he said in a YouTube video by an anti-porn group called XXX Church (another problematic, unscriptural “ministry,” * the lead pastor even says homosexuality is not a big deal and homosexuals will go to heaven and do not have to change, and equates it with being “fat,” read this). He claims that his marriage “fell apart.” Either way the bible in 1 Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:6 clearly state that no one should be preaching or teaching the Church unless they are the husband of one wife. Tommy Green is now re-married to a second wife. This disqualifies him for such a teaching/preaching  ministry. Divorce is only acceptable if the reason is marriage-unfaithfulness or adultery (read Matthew 19:9, Matthew 5:32, Malachi 2:16, 1 Corinthians 7:1, Luke 16:18, Mark 10:11). If adultery is not the case, or his wife did not reject him because of Christ— if she was an unbeliever and cheated and left him—and if his first wife was a professing Christian as well as Tommy at the time— then Tommy’s 2nd marriage causes him to currently be living in sin. This is another red flag.

Unqualified for ministry according to the Scriptures

        Another problem is that he disqualifies himself. He states that he is “immature,” “a moron,” is not that smart etc., in the Biola chapel he was speaking at in the video. As the Colossians passage above states, He does not hold onto the head where the tendons and ligaments grow. He is not grown. So it is obvious he is spiritually, theologically and moronically immature. He stated it himself. Why should any rational person listen to someone who disqualifies himself? Did Paul, Peter, or anyone else who wrote much of the New Testament ever claim they were immature or a moron? Colossians 1:28 states the importance of spiritual maturity,

“We proclaim Him, warning and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone mature in Christ.”

Also Colossians 4:12 shows that one of Paul’s converts and workers contended and prayed for the Colossian church to be able to “stand mature and fully assured in everything God wills.”

        In the video Tommy Green keeps saying “I don’t know,” “I don’t really know anything…” and “I could be wrong,” and “you guys know more than me…” Even Tommy Green himself is claiming he is not fully assured in everything God wills, but then goes and tells the Biola chapel that God wills them to have supernatural experiences and they must accept them and ask for them to happen. Is he sure about that? He testifies against himself that his own ideas are not trustworthy and keeps using extreme false humility and asking for grace so that people cannot question him and call him to repentance. It is just a tactic all the hip-false teachers use to appeal to young impressionable minds.

Then we will no longer be little children, tossed by the waves and blown around by every wind of teaching, by human cunning with cleverness in the techniques of deceit.     Ephesians 4:14

Biola University has low standards for chapels

        1 Timothy 3:2 also states that a person who is going to preach or teach must be “an able teacher.” Obviously, just viewing the video proves he is not an able teacher. His actions are also undignified and irreverent and full of stupid jokes and sidetracking thoughts and weird antics. He wastes a large amount of time on things that have nothing to do with his message (pointless pop culture references, calling his wife hot etc). 2 Timothy 2:16 says, “But avoid irreverent, empty speech, for this will produce an even greater measure of godlessness.”
*If anyone has an issue with me claiming Tommy Green is not a good teacher, nor does he know much, let it be remembered in the video he claims Biola students know more than him. I, being a Biola graduate who took 30 units of Bible classes must then, know more than him, and he should listen to me because of that.

        Why is Biola University giving the stage to self proclaimed morons and people who preach from their own minds and not from the Bible? How does this benefit bible students? Would you want to take a class from a professor on any topic who told you that he was a moron and is immature and does not know as much as you? Furthermore, would you want to take a class from that professor if he began teaching you from a dream or vision he had of new things and revelations about the subject instead of teaching with a textbook with credible sources who already have solid objective facts? I wouldn’t.

Such experiences are nothing different from pagan demonic spirit transfer

        One really huge and scary red warning sign is when he talks about hugging Jesus near a really big building and how something spiritual was transferred into his soul, into his being, giving him a feeling like a bomb dropped in his stomach. Such goose bumps and bomb dropping feelings often occur in occult mystical experiences where spirit beings, said to be guides, or spirits of dead people, or angels, aliens etc. transfer powers or objects or even enter into people. Alien abduction stories often talk about objects implanted or put into them by a force. His story is not unlike what pagans experience in their false religions. Even pagan religions speak in babbling tongues, and they have been doing it longer than modern Christianity. I do not believe that Tommy Green’s out of body/vision/trip to heaven experience was from God. It could either have been his own imagination like he said he thought it might be at first, or it is from another spirit that is not Christ. What other spirits are not Christ? The answer is demons. If who Tommy was talking to was a demonic spirit of deception and false teachings, and something was transferred into him, then it is a very likely possibility that Tommy Green of Sleeping Giant is demon possessed. I know that this possibility sounds outrageous to some of you “Christcore” kids out there that your hero could be demon possessed but what other option is there? I remember an album by the band Seventh Star (also on Facedown Records) called Brood of Vipers that has a song called “Be Wary.” I even bought one of their shirts that says, “Be Wary” on it. I am telling you to be wary of what you believe and what people tell you. If it is true that a false spirit was talking to Tommy Green and transferred something into him and put it inside him it is a work of darkness masquerading as light. It is demonic. 2 Corinthians 11:14 says Satan himself disguises himself as an angel of light.

The Christcore, Spirit Filled Hardcore Scene, needs to repent and a reform

        I am calling Tommy and the rest of his band and even Facedown Records which promotes such bands, and anyone involved in the Christian Hardcore scene who believes this New Spirituality to repent and flee from these false doctrines!  I am also someone who likes hardcore music and participated in the hardcore punk and metal scene as a teenager and young adult since the 1990’s. I was even the singer and founder of a grindcore/crust punk band called Ninja Death Clan, that played shows in Eugene, Oregon. I may not be a cool band guy anymore (not that my band was ever cool), or some top touring band on a big ultra cool “Christian music label,” but I am not ignorant of this scene and I am not ignorant of the Bible! This gives me at least some amount of credibility.

        My main point is that anyone who likes hardcore/metal/punk types of music and is a Christian, and is looking for spiritually uplifting music that does not contradict Christianity you should avoid Sleeping Giant because they promote spiritual deception. They promote a “Kingdom on earth now” theology that contradicts the Bible’s teaching that Christ’s return is at the Second Coming. They believe that they can make a Christian-spiritual world right now by their own effort with other Christians so that Christ’s return will happen before the Bible’s timeline as a spiritual Christ-resurrection consciousness. The New Age teaches the same thing about their cosmic-Christ. They believe they can create the return of Christ right now before the biblical Second Coming. It is a spiritual pre-return based on supernaturalism where they claim God’s throne and Kingdom is on earth right now but humanity just has to “realize” and claim it (much like eastern mysticism). And worship music and praise actions will make it all happen. The end result of these beliefs is for a one world, very tolerant spirituality worldwide. This is going to pave the way for the anti-christ one world religion mentioned in Revelation.

Sleeping Giant promotes Emergent Spirituality and New Apostolic Reformation ideas

        Tommy Green is a proponent of Contemplative Prayer when he talks about “waiting prayer” and being still and listening for God to first speak and act on you. This is also known as Centering Prayer that was taught by catholic monks who were influenced by Buddhist and Hindu concepts. They are known as the Desert Fathers. Look them up. The Emergent Church also heavily promotes these “spiritual disciplines.” Tommy Green promotes emergent theology with hyper-charismaticism.

        Here is another video of Sleeping Giant. This one representing Come&Live ministry.

Notice how the video says, “We don’t worship a doctrine or concepts” anymore and we cannot base faith on concepts. Well the men of God and reformers of the faith never worshiped doctrines. But doctrines are the basis of what Christians believe and they help people understand the Bible. They are confessions of biblical truth. Throwing away doctrines makes it a theological free-for-all where anything goes. How is this orderly and godly? God is not a God of chaos. God is the same, today, yesterday, and forever (Hebrews 1:13). He is not different for individual people. He is not one way here and one way there. He does not give one a revelation or vision, and another something else totally different. A negative view of theological teachings and doctrines is how false doctrines easily spread. Also notice how he claims we can literally talk to God now just like human relationships on earth and how God tells us we must have experiences in order to establish His throne/Kingdom on earth. This is dominionist theology and it is itself a doctrine, albeit a false doctrine. But nevertheless it is a doctrine. So they are now contradicting themselves by stating we don’t need doctrines. So their attitude is that “the only true doctrine is that we don’t need any doctrines.” This is self-contradictory.

One might argue and say he is just being sincere with how he feels. Obviously he has those “sincere arched up eye brows” that every charismatic preacher has. *The testimony brows!* But even so, it does not matter. Sincerity does not equal automatic truth. You can be sincere and wrong, or a better way to state it: sincerely wrong! A Muslim can be sincere but be wrong, a Jehovah’s Witness could be sincere but also be wrong. Yes, you can be sincere and destructively wrong. You can be sincerely wrong in a very nice sounding yet deceptive way too. So an argument from sincerity is invalid.

The new, post modern, charismatic rock and roll missionaries

On another note, ministries like Come&Live promote such concepts in foreign places like Columbia. You can send $10 a month to help Tommy Green keep doing his ministry of supernatural experiences! These sensual and popular mystical doctrines are spreading all over the world through the new type of hipster rock and roll missionaries. Not only guys in bands either but ultra cool looking people spreading these messages. The churches are funding such “cool dudes” to spread the mystical message of their “jesus-spirit” while missionaries who want to spread the Words of the Bible with the gospel message and want to do teaching and preaching are ignored as irrelevant. If I only realized earlier in life that to be accepted and funded as a missionary I had to get a few Straight Edge tattoos, icthys symbols, and tattoo sleeves, and maybe gauged ears, and a lip piercing or two and wore really cool clothes, and played in a band and spoke hyper-emotionally about cool supernatural experiences I would have gotten all of the funding I needed and probably had my college loans paid off. I would be a really important dude.

False Jesus, false gospel promoted through emotional manipulation and occult spirituality

1 Corinthians 11:4 says that people easily put up with false teachings with a false-jesus and false-gospel. Also, Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Whether or not everyone involved in this new spiritual movement know better does not matter. They all need to repent and change. They need to start viewing faith through the Bible. Just because they say “live the word!” and “this is biblical its ok!” does not matter. Just saying it does not make it true. They need to prove it, because all of the proof says they are not behaving biblically.

        Also, Tommy Green even states that Jesus will create rooms in Heaven for people who won’t even follow Him and will not make it to Heaven. This idea is totally Arminian, and rejects the sovereignty of God and makes Jesus look like a desperate loser who planned a party where hardly anyone shows up. It says that God has no control over salvation, and individual Christians have to impress the unbelievers to think God is cool. This is done by emotional manipulation by hyper emotional hardcore metal music with melodic trance-like sounds in between breakdowns and sing along parts to get people in the mood to feel the Holy Spirit. But their spirit is not the true Holy Spirit, but the spirit of the New Age with all of its supernatural experiences and manifestations. It is a judge-me-not religion that claims to hate religion and deescalates the seriousness of sin in people’s lives. Basically if you are cool with Jesus you are okay despite your lifestyle and convictions and you can sin all you want as long as you say “hey no one changes over night!”, and only really really mean bad people go to hell probably. This is post-modern religion.

        Here is an example of emotionalism and not objective thought:

This is nothing but “primal scream therapy.” So what now because someone put their hands up at a Sleeping Giant show and pretended to break negative thoughts or experiences in their life apart like chains they are now super spiritually close to God and the Holy Spirit is now in them? How does he even know everyone there is saved? And if he assumes some people are not then how does an unbeliever have the Holy Spirit because they did hand gestures and actions in a really emotional way? The Bible says true salvation from sin and death comes by faith through repentance and belief in God. It is a total heart change and open confession of Christ making Him Lord of your life. It is not done by hand signs, gestures, feelings, going to a hardcore show and moshing etc. This is very poor and very shallow theology that does not produce legitimate fruit. I would know because I have been to one of their shows, I have been to many bands shows who claim Christ, I have been to many charismatic church gatherings, I went to Biola University, and I have been around and seen a lot! I know that nothing like this ever changes a person’s heart. What does change a person is the truth of God’s Word and the response to the call of God by the Holy Spirit to repent and live a clean and new life in worship of God. It is not an emotional experience that changes a person. It is objective truth being understood and rationally accepted by someone’s mind through God, and by God alone. Not by human effort or emotional manipulation. This is done by preaching and someone hearing the Bible’s message (Romans 10:14).

Unchanged hearts and minds with a lack of true conviction and animosity towards the Church

Many people who go to such charismatic gatherings never change and are just as vile, wicked, angry, manipulative, mean spirited, and sexually immoral as they were before they had that experience. I remember a time when I saw the band Rock And Roll Worship Circus a few times in Eugene, Oregon which is another band that promotes the new spiritual deception and all its heresies. People did not really change, they remained the same and were just as sinful as before. It is a false understanding of salvation or “movement” of the Holy Spirit. It is inflated by a person’s own mind or it is demonic, and also can be both and in many instances probably both (whatever the case is for Tommy Green).

The hyper-charismatic, Contemplative Mysticism and New Age Occult practices have totally engulfed the Christian hipster world of underground art, music, entertainment, and churches. It is inflated with pride and claims: “We are the weird church and we are better than those old people in those traditional church buildings! We know better, but also we are super humble and down to earth and never judge anyone ever!”
It is a contradicting attitude about God and church living: “We don’t judge but we know the other churches are jerks and we are better and more loving! We are humble which makes us better than the mean prideful churches that hurt our feelings!” It has led to much heresy and liberal ideas as well as outright confrontation with Christ’s Church and the True Religion where it says “church is dead” and “religion must die.”

The appearance of evil

The Bible says in 2 Corinthians 6:14, “Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?” This is a command stating Christians should not partner up and work together with unbelievers. It teaches that Christians cannot marry unbelievers, nor can Christians partner up in business with unbelievers especially God’s ministry! How ironic it would be to become a missionary and team up with an atheist or some very unchristian person. It would not make sense. But what do we see with Sleeping Giant! The band that is a ministry supposedly for our holy God to give the Holy Spirit to all people!— What we see is them partnering up with a pagan. Watch the music video of their song “Eyes Wide Open”:

The guest vocalist in this video with the white machine gun shirt is Frankie Palmeri of the band Emmure. He is also recorded on Sleeping Giant’s album for this song. The song “Eyes Wide Open” written by Tommy Green, has lyrics that are judgmental towards the church, claiming it does not care about people and it shuts its doors on them, and that such people as him (Tommy Green) are true revivalists and revolutionaries for the faith. He even states that “all of heaven is standing with me.” Basically, it seems that he equates himself as the ultimate truth for what church or faith should be. So heaven is standing with him so we cannot question him. Well for me, as a Christian, I stand with Heaven not the other way around. I stand for God, God does not stand for me because I am a sinner. But if Tommy is simply saying Heaven has his back because he is right and we are wrong then ok….still he is just claiming we cannot question him because he is absolutely right and the Church is wrong.

Now if this music is supposed to be about true revival and prayer to a holy God it seems odd that he would team up with Frankie Palmeri, an unbelieving secularite who writes sexually vulgar and misogynistic lyrics, songs about killing ex-girlfriends, blasphemy against Jesus Christ (“Imaculate Misconception”) , promotes bad taste in t-shirt designs (Columbine Massacre images with “Shoot first ask questions later”), believes in Niribu Aliens, claims to have had outer body experiences and spiritual experiences viewing all people as one (New Age much?), claiming he saw his soul in the mirror and he had horns, and who has a general ignorance of the meaning of life or where we go after death (very post-modern new age nonsense). Not to mention Frankie Palmeri idolizes Fred Durst of Limp Bizkit (not only a bad role model but a terrible vocalist that shows Palmeri has a horrible taste in music and is a poser in a mainstream boring rap/metalcore band). Read the Lambgoat interview. Did Sleeping Giant think they would win major hardcore scene points for featuring him as a guest? It would seem the true secular underground hardcore scene would think this is a joke. Did Sleeping Giant think they would win Christian scene points by making them appear relevant to the world? I don’t know but I can tell you they only look stupid and hypocritical. Emmure is a talentless boring band, and Frankie Palmeri is a nutjob and unchristian in every way. So they lose hardcore respect by having him in the video as well as biblical Christian respect by being unequally yolked with someone opposed to the cause of Christ. What ministry invites a pagan to speak for them and promote them? Sleeping Giant has the appearance of evil. There excuse will probably be that they are witnessing Christ to Frankie Palmeri and Emmure and their fans. It didn’t seem to work, he is still the same. Why should he change if he is accepted just as he is without a need to repent of his sins and follow Christ!

Time to take a stand against false spirituality and start being full of Absolute Truth

Beware who you follow in this day and age! It is time for rational Christians who are fans of heavy music to either get out and stop supporting so called Christian bands, or start making bands that are theologically sound and care about true evangelization who are uninterested in trying to please the world. Or just walk away from the scene all together and move on with your life. There are too many sellout Christian bands who used Christians for financial gain and were fake to begin with, and too many false teachers in bands who are deceived by false spirituality. They are spreading their messages through their music to many impressionable kids and young people who are looking for the Truth and not getting it anywhere. What makes it dangerous is the fact many false-Christian bands who live completely secular lives and never mention Jesus are rampant, so when a false-spiritual band is very loud and yells Jesus a lot and Holy Spirit, and comes off as very spiritual for God it is easy to fall prey to the mystical lies. This is just a trick of Satan as he understands the desire for outright Christian bands who promote faith.

Christian hardcore kids who base their theology or spiritual ideas on what other bands say are no better than the secular hardcore kid who bases all of his political and social beliefs, and his life philosophies on what secular bands preach. It is time to stop being a zombie in a moshpit and start basing your beliefs on God’s Word. Stop being an emotionally weak person who is manipulated and think for yourself and stand back and check to see if what you are doing or what your friends are doing is in line with Scripture. Prove it or shut up! There is no room for effeminate “scene kids,” man up and study the bible like the Bereans!

Conclusion

It is also absolutely a shame that Biola University who started on the foundation of God’s Word and Biblical beliefs has gone so far left and off the narrow path to embrace such self proclaimed morons to speak to their students as if they are a spiritual “giant” and super deep, or have something profound to say when they basically have ADHD and sound like a lame version of Jim Carey or trying to be Wayne’s World. Giving people like this credibility and a pedestal to stand on and appear important is going to continue to lead more young minds into confusion and false teachings. This is undignified behavior for a man of God who is supposedly preaching such a serious topic. What is really pathetic is that Tommy Green claims Heaven looks like Venice and people are flying around. Even Paul could not elaborate or explain what He saw in Heaven and would not dare tell us in the Bible when HE ALONE was taken up to the Third-Heaven (read 2 Corinthians 12). He heard inexpressible words which man is not allowed to speak. It was such a rare thing in the Bible only Paul went to heaven and back, and it most definitely is a rare and non-occurring thing today. This is why the Bible is so special. Only false teachers seem to be making such claims and if everyone could just go to heaven it makes the Bible ordinary and nothing special. Paul would no longer be an important Apostle for us to study if everyone can do what he did. 1 Corinthians 2:9 says that “No eye has seen, nor ear has heard what God has prepared for those who love Him.” Yet, Tommy “Jesus is HOT and we are dating” Green, an immature believer who in no way is even close to Paul’s status and character was allowed to go to heaven while chillin’ at Starbucks and was given permission to tell everyone what he saw? Yeah riiiight. Also, God prepares things for those who love Him. So any room Jesus created is for those who are saved and love God. There will not be ANY empty rooms in heaven and all will be occupied with true believers. Make sure you are one of them by having true repentance and faith and do not believe the new Spiritual Deception of our post-modern and occult embracing evil age.

The Christian music scene needs to repent of its false spirituality and heretical proclamations about God. It is time to stop supporting music that does not base beliefs on the Bible, but inflated minds, time to stop supporting false Christian bands who live completely secular lives, and time to stop supporting ANYONE who uses the Christian faith to make money and gain popularity whether it be record labels or speakers, ministries or anyone else. Christians should not support Sleeping Giant or Facedown Records because they are promoting the New Spirituality and all of its false teachings. If Tommy Green or anyone in Sleeping Giant has read this I urge you to repent and re-study the Bible and seek an objectionable faith based on what Scripture says. I also urge Facedown Records to repent. Also, if any rational Christians are reading this who are not deceived by the New Age mysticism rampant in our churches today please pray for men like Tommy Green to find the true faith of Christ and that His eyes will actually be open to God’s Truth found in the Bible. I really hope Tommy Green will be able to reject the demon presence in his life that is giving him these false teachings and spirit of deception, and I hope he becomes mature in Christ.

I am sick of this “christcore” scene! I am not here to win scene points or impress band guys or “Mr. Hardcore scene Joe.” I am here to present God’s truth and I do not care who I have offended because I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ (Romans 1:16). Because it is the power that brings everyone to salvation away from eternal damnation in hell; and the days are evil and full of deception. I stand for biblical truth. I am not afraid to be shunned by the Christian Hardcore scene.

*Now if you have read this entire article good for you. I want to update you with news that other bands who promote a false spirituality in much the same manner as Sleeping Giant are For Today (especially singer Mattie Montgomery who promotes heresy and is against “Sola Scriptura” whether he understands that term or not; because he claims in his blog that no one can know what is right from wrong by reading a book but instead by some “hearing” of the spirit. Read: Homosexuality and the Rebellious Church. Another band is Clear Convictions, the Puerto Rican, Christian Hardcore band that just released a new album and was formerly on Strike First Records (Facedown Records sub label). I personally chatted on Facebook with the singer, Daniel A. Maldonado, who proceeded to call me a pharisee and worker of the devil after telling him to read this article. I still have the messages to prove it. So be warned and stop supporting bands that preach a sappy, shallow, and false spirituality while claiming Christ. Giving your money to these bands is giving money to false teachers who lead people astray. 

288 thoughts on “Sleeping Giant Is Proof The Christian Hardcore Scene Is Corrupt With The New Spirituality And Not Biblical Faith

  1. Awesome message. I would have to fully agree these new Christian Rock artists are nothing like the old ones. I remember growing up listening to Petra. They actually were into this for people being saved. But these new ones many of them are not. I agree with you, music does not save someone. It’s the conviction of the Holy Spirit that saves someone and if the right message is not being taught than there can be no Holy Spirit conviction.

    • Make sure when you mean Holy Spirit conviction that it does not mean “I was slain in the spirit and fell on the ground speaking in tongues and I saw a vision where I went to heaven and God talked to me and said its all ok”, but make sure you mean a response to the gospel taught in the Bible that Jesus died for your sins and if you repent and believe and accept Christ as Lord you are saved.

    • Also I remember when many SFHC bands existed, but I am sure many are pentcostal or charismatic weirdos now days. The scene always was shady but most promoted a biblical faith at least.

      • I do not hold to the “slain in the spirit” or things like that. I was raised Independent Baptist than for a little bit I went to some of those churches. I saw so many people acting so “spiritual” in church but on the outside they were totally different people. For a while I stopped going to church and spiritually went backslidden alot. That’s how I ended up married to an Iglesia ni Cristo member from the Philippines. I must say I never saw a more evil cult than that one. I turned back to Christ when they tried to convert me. I’m not a denominationalist but I did go back to Independent Baptist Church. Ill say this I have gotten so much more out of the teachings of my current church than I did any Pentecostal Church. Right now unfortunately things are going bad between me and my wife. She’s left me because I refuse to convert to that INC. I have put up with so much emotional abuse from her and her mom. They’ve called me devil and all kinds of things because I refuse to convert and have been speaking out against the INC. But I know God is with me. I remember back to the day I got saved when I was 12 years old at church camp. He’s still with me today just as he was then. I know he’s forgiven me. There was no Christian Rock concert or anything like that. It was a simple invitation to accept Christ as my personal savior and I took it. But anyway I don’t care what my wife or her mother says or does to me. Truth is truth and lies are lies. I decided a few years ago I’m through pretending to serve God and being backslidden so I got right and asked for his forgiveness. Right now things are not good, but I know later its going to be worth it all and. God is still faithful. I’m sorry I didn’t mean to go on like this but I in the past had seen your INC videos in the past and really liked them. Anyway I could go on about this but I think I’ll close for now. I’m subscribed to your you tube and I enjoy the other videos as well. Ill talk to you later and God Bless.

        • Wow man that is amazing! And it is rough we are always going to be persecuted and rejected for standing up for biblical faith. The worse offenders are the people who follow a false christ and a false gospel. The pentecostal new apostolic reformationists are the most angry right now in the USA. And yes the INC is a horrible and wicked wicked cult. Are you Filipino or American? Have a great day and be strong and be a witness to your wife no matter what and keep praying they will repent.

          • I’m a white American just like you are. Sometimes when I type with my iPhone I hit the wrong buttons. LOL. Anyway I’m from Wooster, Ohio I was born and raised here. It’s really close to where a lot of Amish and Mennonites live. Lived her all my life until 2004 I enlisted in the Army. My first duty station was Korea. That’s where I spiritually fell apart. I got into the wrong things while stationed there I met my wife. I met her in Yahoo chat, where I was foolishly let myself be taken even farther away from God. I didn’t really understand who the INC was at that time in fact I had never heard of them. After I got married I started discovering very quick who they really were. In fact the way her and her mother tried to force that on me I started reading the Bible again and praying and God soon opened my eyes to what the INC really was. I’ve been around Christian cults before but this one takes the cake. I’ve never in my life have I seen a more vile, evil, and prideful as these people are. I remember the biggest clash with them in 2008 where I actually went to one of there services in Killeen, TX because I was stationed at Fort Hood at the time. Those people after the service started telling me if you really love your wife you would convert and things like that and saying she can’t be a member and be saved until you do. I turned it on them saying how that is false teachings and will not accept them. At that point they just exploded saying to my wife you should divorce him if he doesn’t convert. Then I said to them “In the name of Jesus Christ I declare your minister a false teacher and Felix Manalo an antichrist. I was shouted at called all kinds of names I just simply walked out. I saw their evilness for the first time in person. My wife at that time had stopped going and wasn’t going anywhere for a while. Than when I got stationed in Hawaii where I’m currently stationed it started back up again. Her mother came to the USA and she started going there again. What started the tension was they started inviting me to some of there events like picnics, bowling, parties and thought about going until this verse popped off in my head: Ephesians 5:6-11 KJV
            6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
            7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
            8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
            9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
            10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
            11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
            By standing for the truth I have been made an outcast in my own home. Her and her mom as I’ve said before have called me the devil and her mom especially has done that saying Baptist is going to hell and things like that. What made this explode was when she told me not to post anymore Christian pictures and messages on Facebook and I blatantly refused saying I have the right and constitutional liberties to post on Facebook whatever I want. The thing is I never put one thing about the INC on Facebook. So that shows a hatred of Gods truth. Since then its been spiritually all out war. It’s so sad my mom had to fly out to Hawaii last Aug because she got angry at me and she said to me and our 4 and 2 year old sons I’m never coming back. They cried for over an hour. My mom flew there the next day and of course her and her mom return to the house. With my mom there it calmed things for a little bit. It was no longer 2 to 1. However smaller disputes broke out I got to the point I told her mom were no longer mother and son relationship that my real mother would never do the things to me you have done to me. My wife kept on saying I want divorce I’m done and so I said fine I’m done too. Now keep this in mind I have prayed about this alot sought wise counsel from my Pastor, family, and friends. I don’t want to divorce, but there is no other choice. I’m currently on leave here in Ohio with my 4 year old son whom she has also taken her anger out on. Before leaving I’ve hired an attourney and when I return at the end of the month sadly I will be filing for divorce. I know this is long but I really feel the Holy Spirit laid this on my heart to share this. I know I don’t need to convince you of this because I’ve watched your videos you made about the INC. This was written so other people may be warned of the INC and their evilness. But also to fellow Christians out there who are backslidden and not living the way they are suppose to be living. Don’t learn the hard way like I did, and when you get married make sure that person is saved. If they are not your in a whole lot of trouble. If your backslidden turn back to Christ he will forgive you. He forgave me he will surely forgive you. If anyone wants to copy and past this and put it on another blog, you tube, or Facebook go ahead and do so. Thanks so much for listening God Bless.

          • Wow powerful story man that is very sad. Just know if you want to follow the bible about your marriage just let her file the divorce. Why should you participate in her sin? The only legal reason biblically would be marital unfaithfulness or sexual immorality, and the fact she rejects you because of Jesus. If you are the one to reject her and file it it puts it on you. Just let her do it. Just continue to be a witness to her even if its condemnation on her. Also try to keep your kids with you and not her. That is a huge deal.

          • She does reject me because of my faith in Christ. I’m filing because she has no intention of making this marriage work and has mad it clear she is done with this marriage. She has already left both physically and emotionally. I have no other choice but to submit to this. 1st Corinthians 7:15 says this about a person in a marriage like this.

            15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

            With her having no intention of reconciling this and has already left and had made it clear she’s not coming back I believe puts me into that situation. My goal still is reconciliation. I’m doing this because I need to protect my older child from emotional harm because of her taking alot of anger out on him. What she also done is emotional abuse against me and my son. Now I know the bible is silent when it comes to spouses being abused either physically or emotionally. I could be wrong but my personal belief is if the person being abused wants out they have the right to leave. I’m in that situation of emotional abuse. Since I’ve done Law Enforcement for many years I’ve seen a lot of Physical Spouse Abuse as well first hand and being there right after it has taken place. Like I said I believe in situations of spouse abuse they need to get out of that. I know the bible is silent on that but I don’t believe Jesus would tell someone they have to stay with a spouse abuser. I’m not going to go into detail but she has emotionally abused me not just on the religious issue. Constantly telling me I’m no good and making fun of some of my disabilities and especially now doing those things to our 4 year old son. This is a toxic relationship I cannot stay in anymore. Those things I mentioned are just a few things. I’m not going to go into them all but I’ve given you enough to give you a picture of what’s going on. Anyway I would like to here your opinion on this because you make some good points on some of your videos and blogs. Anyways got to go to sleep. God Bless.

          • Well man then just pray about it and its up to you. And I am sorry you had to go through all of this but it just shows us the spiritual fights that are going on every day around us. It is good you have found salvation and know the truth so just keep living it and be strong.

          • I appreciate the responses and I appreciate you listening. I will definantly continue to stand on Gods word which is the absolute truth. I did like when you had the INC Video series and how they got exposed. It wasn’t just the videos themselves but the comments that were made by them. The nastiness they used, I even saw a comment that said,”you should just die”. I don’t know if it was directed at you or some other commenter but it really made me raise my eye brows. But anyway I’ve read your other blogs as well and I look forward to reading more of them. I like them because they challenge me to think. Well good night and God Bless.

          • Thanks a lot man and yes the INC comment must have been directed towards me because they said many comments like that.
            Anyway, about the topic on hand in this current article beware of the false signs and wonders movement of the charismatic cultists. They promote a false Jesus and false gospel of new age mysticism. This is especially prevalent in the “christian hardcore” scene with chaotic nonsense theology (yet they think theology is a waste of time).

          • I agree with you on this. Alot of the Charismatic Movement is based on emotion. There’s some that are saved sure but the teaching isn’t really well scripturaly based. I have several problems with there teachings. 1 I don’t see anything that there’s a baptism of the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tounges. I believe a person receives the Holy Spirit when they receive salvation. 2 I believe Speaking in tounges was ment for the Apostle age because the New Testament hadn’t been written yet. Now that we have the New Testament in written form where we can read it, I believe now that’s how the Holy Spirit speaks to us. 3 I don’t believe salvation can be lost. If you really come to think about it those churches teaching salvation can be lost are contradicting themselves. They are saying its by faith not of works for salvation, yet they say salvation can be lost. Then in all reality your working for your salvation when the bible doesn’t teach that. I can attest to those things because I used go to the Assemblies of God for a few years. Some other Pentecostal churches are not at all biblical in there teachings I agree. Alot of the new Christian Rock has gone that way too I agree. They aren’t in it for evangelism they are in it for the money because it sells and they are just playing on people emotions and they are getting an emotional movement and not a Holy Spirit movement. Well I’m gonna get to bed getting sleepy. You have a good night. God Bless

      • First off, we don’t make Facedown as much money as you think. Second, we don’t sell a “TON” of merch either. Im not sure where you get your facts from but wherever it is, they are wrong. Im sorry.

        • At one point you did make them a ton of money. Maybe not anymore. Fact. bazillion (exaggeration for “a lot of”) shirts printed sold through mail order and at shows. Nothing wrong with that. My point is Christian labels don’t care about spiritual discernment as long as $$ comes in. Same goes with many churches. Your scene is no better than any church.

      • First off, we don’t make Facedown as much money as you think. Second, we don’t sell a “TON” of merch either. Im not sure where you get your facts from but wherever it is, they are wrong. Im sorry.

      • Just so you know, bands such as sleeping giant do not make a lot of money. Record labels pay for the merch, records and touring and take close to 90% of the earnings. These band members after they are no longer relevant often times have to go back to school to learn how to enter the work force with little to no work experience. If you don’t know the music industry don’t claim it to be fact that they make a lot of money.

        • Just so you know. Bands such as Sleeping Giant at the time made Facedown Records popular and sold PLENTY of merch during their hayday on that label and there is absolutely no way that labels will question the theology of a band that is giving them record sales on mail order from hardcore kids who go to youth group. Its a fact. Such labels are the stepping stone to larger labels that give them more exposure. I never claimed they were millionaires or even rich, but the fact is they gave relevancy to Facedown. If YOU dont know the music industry, especially the CHRISTIAN music industry dont claim to be a fact that they do NOT make relevant money.

          Also the lack of education, work experience and more, especially lack of bible training should make ANYONE use discernment when following a teaching one such band makes.

  2. I do believe scripture is very important, i do not listen to this band, but how can you knock someone who says to have a personal relationship with Jesus. That talks of Love. Gods greatest Commandment is to love one another

    • Do you believe that it is possible someone from a false religion, or someone who believes something untrue that is critical can also claim to have a personal relationship with Jesus and talk about loving everyone?
      Also how many other gods or religions claim to love love love? Is it always true? Or is it possible to believe or promote a lie about Jesus and then say tis Jesus and then say love?

      Mormons believe in a Jesus and claim to promote love, Jehovahs Witnesses too, and many other cults.

  3. All very valid and interesting points. The obvious “red flag” to me is when a “minister” creates a ministry using their name. In order to set themselves on a pedestal above their brethren they have to concoct some extraordinary experiences to draw attention to themselves and build “their” ministry/kingdom. There is only one who can proclaim an extraordinary experience and that is Jesus Christ Himself pertaining to His glorious resurrection. Therefore I will be drawn to Him and Him alone. I do not know these men that you write of, neither do I have enough time in the day to analyze their lives or motives. I do know this though, they can do noting against the cause of Christ. I also know that God is merciful and He chooses to use us despite out faults and ignorance.

    • Yes alot of people do “make up ministries” in order to seek attention and use fantastic experiences (also made up) to get people to pay attention to them. Also, some are delusional in a false mystical experiential belief that is influenced by demons and such experiences like spirit travel to another realm or alien abductions are common among such groups. They are exactly the same in these so called “christian” groups, just the language has been changed.

      Now, people can be enemies of the gospel by teaching false things. God does not use false teachings to save people. Satan does. You do not have to personally know people I talk about on my article because I don’t either. But I don’t have to personally know anyone to analyze their public statements that are trying to tell me what to believe. I have provided links to sources I used in my article so it is up to you or anyone to see if I am making valid points.

      God is merciful and can save people from such blasphemy and heretical beliefs just as Paul was a heretic and blasphemer before Christ changed Him. But the point is people need to be wary of false teachers and not be afraid to call them out. Simply saying, “Hmm well God could still use them” and walking away in my opinion is a weak stance on your faith. If what you have to so true, so precious, so important, why would yo put up with people saying false things about it? How can anyone get saved from a false gospel? Read the Scripture I provided and think about it.

      There are many enemies of God who try to fight Christ’s cause with the help of demons, or whatever selfish motives they have, yet it is impossible to stop God’s plans. So if we simply think that way we could then say “Who cares about evangelism or teaching anything, nothing can stop God’s plans…” That sounds like a hyper-calvinist way of thinking which is seriously wrong. We are called to fight against the devil’s schemes, speak up for the gospel and promote truth and call out the false teachers just as Paul and Peter did. God has given this duty to all Christians. While nothing will fail in God’s plans it us by us that He decided to act out His plan. So don’t just walk away from stuff simply because you don’t happen to personally know someone. Be informed! And be ready whenever anything comes up about it.

      • All I am saying is what Jesus told his own disciples-

        Luke 9:49-50 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

        Believe me God is a big God and can take care of himself. He does not need any bodyguards that is for sure.

        Think about it, Jesus had every right to expose all of the heretics of the day. Rather, he focused upon and preached The Truth. Do you really think that the exposition of heretics individually is going to spiritually liberate the lost? No of course not, only The Word can accomplish this-

        Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

        All I am saying is focus on preaching the Truth and the Truth (Light) will expose all of the lies (darkness) all by itself. Then you will not have to focus on exposing individual persons, you will then expose the evil masses as a whole.

        • “Luke 9:49-50 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.”

          This verse does not apply to people promoting false beliefs. It is only speaking of other people who believe in Jesus, most likely the disciples of John the Baptist who were not traveling with Jesus and the 12 disciple’s. You are applying this verse to also speak of false teachers who use Christ’s name. This is a wrong interpretation of that verse. False believers use Christ’s name for all kinds of reasons and promote a false gospel while trying to look the the real Gospel. It is plain that the existence of “false gospels” and “false Christs” exist. 2 Corinthians 11:4, Galatians 1:6-9, 2 Peter 2:1-3. So this is obvious. And you are incorrectly trying to use the above states verse you listed as aproof text that it is wrong to criticize false doctrines.

          “Believe me God is a big God and can take care of himself. He does not need any bodyguards that is for sure.”

          Christians are not bodyguards of God. but Christians are called to teach truth and expose error. 1 Timothy 1:18-20 even names the names of people who reject proper instruction in the gospel and he delivers them up to Satan. 2 Peter 1:20 also states that you are not to just assume or make up your own interpretation of Scripture. Which is what Tommy Green constantly does in his youtube videos. It is obvious throughout the bible we are taught to say what is true and expose what is false.

          “Think about it, Jesus had every right to expose all of the heretics of the day. Rather, he focused upon and preached The Truth. Do you really think that the exposition of heretics individually is going to spiritually liberate the lost? No of course not, only The Word can accomplish this-”

          According to Paul and Peter it certainly did help as they named people by name. Please look into this and understand.
          Jesus also made a whip and went into the temple complex and turned over tables etc. he constantly told Pharisees to their face they were sons of the Devil as well as going to hell and told people not to follow them. The Apostles also exposed false believers like Simon the Sorcerer whom Peter openly said to his face he hopes his gold and silver are destroyed along with him. Are you saying the Apostles were wrong and being God’s body guard?

          “Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

          What is your point? If someone hears a lie and believes it there is no faith. When someone teaches what is true they will have faith. Christians are not God’s body guard but teachers and pastor’s of the Word are the shepherds of their flocks and are to protect them by wrapping them up in Truth and discarding error.

          “All I am saying is focus on preaching the Truth and the Truth (Light) will expose all of the lies (darkness) all by itself. Then you will not have to focus on exposing individual persons, you will then expose the evil masses as a whole.”

          I only expose individuals when I feel like it. Most of my articles are about general beliefs and cultural things. My blog is about Truth and encouraging Christians into truth. A lot of times you have to discuss error, and false teachers to make a point. You even admitted I make valid points int his article. You should not be upset I named people. Do not accuse me of simply only calling out people by name. I do much more than that. I just think most Christians who were or are into the hardcore music scene need to be more biblically grounded and to avoid the big popular bands who preach false doctrines and do not love the truth.

          • “Luke 9:49-50 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.”

            You: This verse does not apply to people promoting false beliefs. It is only speaking of other people who believe in Jesus, most likely the disciples of John the Baptist who were not traveling with Jesus and the 12 disciple’s. You are applying this verse to also speak of false teachers who use Christ’s name. This is a wrong interpretation of that verse. False believers use Christ’s name for all kinds of reasons and promote a false gospel while trying to look the the real Gospel. It is plain that the existence of “false gospels” and “false Christs” exist. 2 Corinthians 11:4, Galatians 1:6-9, 2 Peter 2:1-3. So this is obvious. And you are incorrectly trying to use the above states verse you listed as aproof text that it is wrong to criticize false doctrines.

            Me: “for he that is not against us is for us” The word he is not spelled out exclusive. The Scripture is clear that nothing can be done against the Truth.

            “Believe me God is a big God and can take care of himself. He does not need any bodyguards that is for sure.”

            You: Christians are not bodyguards of God. but Christians are called to teach truth and expose error. 1 Timothy 1:18-20 even names the names of people who reject proper instruction in the gospel and he delivers them up to Satan. 2 Peter 1:20 also states that you are not to just assume or make up your own interpretation of Scripture. Which is what Tommy Green constantly does in his youtube videos. It is obvious throughout the bible we are taught to say what is true and expose what is false.

            Me: These were not sporadic names pulled from youtube or a few articles/public appearances. No doubt Paul knew these men, not to mention the fact that his apostolic authority had unique privileges while NT scripture was established. Do you really know Tommy Green and the others that you expose? I have no problem with you exposing error, I would just be extremely careful when it comes to naming names.

            “Think about it, Jesus had every right to expose all of the heretics of the day. Rather, he focused upon and preached The Truth. Do you really think that the exposition of heretics individually is going to spiritually liberate the lost? No of course not, only The Word can accomplish this-”

            You: According to Paul and Peter it certainly did help as they named people by name. Please look into this and understand.
            Jesus also made a whip and went into the temple complex and turned over tables etc. he constantly told Pharisees to their face they were sons of the Devil as well as going to hell and told people not to follow them. The Apostles also exposed false believers like Simon the Sorcerer whom Peter openly said to his face he hopes his gold and silver are destroyed along with him. Are you saying the Apostles were wrong and being God’s body guard?

            Me: Key word “face to face”. Have you spoken with those you call out as heretics face to face?

            “Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

            You: What is your point? If someone hears a lie and believes it there is no faith. When someone teaches what is true they will have faith. Christians are not God’s body guard but teachers and pastor’s of the Word are the shepherds of their flocks and are to protect them by wrapping them up in Truth and discarding error.

            Me: The point is that the Word of God converts sinners and keeps them in the paths of righteousness, not expositions of false teachers and blog rants.

            “All I am saying is focus on preaching the Truth and the Truth (Light) will expose all of the lies (darkness) all by itself. Then you will not have to focus on exposing individual persons, you will then expose the evil masses as a whole.”

            You: I only expose individuals when I feel like it. Most of my articles are about general beliefs and cultural things. My blog is about Truth and encouraging Christians into truth. A lot of times you have to discuss error, and false teachers to make a point. You even admitted I make valid points int his article. You should not be upset I named people. Do not accuse me of simply only calling out people by name. I do much more than that. I just think most Christians who were or are into the hardcore music scene need to be more biblically grounded and to avoid the big popular bands who preach false doctrines and do not love the truth.

            Me: “expose individuals”. I am sure we all have issues worthy of exposition.

            “hardcore music scene need to be more biblically grounded”

            “biblically grounded” is the premise behind my replies. I am not completely dismissing your work. I could just as easily pick apart your writing and the authors of the books you suggest and publicly call all error I find as heresy. Would I being doing you or them biblical justice by calling you or them a heretic.

            There are always two sides of a story, we do not know if someone repented of a particular sin or have grown out of particular ignorance concerning Scripture. God is long-suffering and allows us all room to grow. If not, we would all be crushed like a bug a long time ago.

          • Me: “for he that is not against us is for us” The word he is not spelled out exclusive. The Scripture is clear that nothing can be done against the Truth.

            A lot of things are done against the truth. But if you mean nothing can STOP the truth then yes. BUt many things are constantly done against the truth all of the time. This is common sense.
            Also that verse is not talking about someone doing something “against the truth.” You are implying a straw man argument with that text. You even showed me Jesus said the guy was not against him. The man was not opposing Christ but promoting Christ. And also the true Christ, not a false christ.

            Me: These were not sporadic names pulled from youtube or a few articles/public appearances. No doubt Paul knew these men, not to mention the fact that his apostolic authority had unique privileges while NT scripture was established. Do you really know Tommy Green and the others that you expose? I have no problem with you exposing error, I would just be extremely careful when it comes to naming names.

            It does not matter if Paul knew people or did not know people. Some people claim to be part of the body of Christ and are associating themselves as Christian. They are publicly telling people, in this instance at Biola (a University I graduated from), what to believe. What am I supposed to do hide his name? “Oh in this video a guy who’s name I won;t mention said thus..” come on that is just stupid. He names himself openly and advertises what he believes. He is then subject rightfully by Christians to scrutinize what he says. In the video, if you actually watched it, he literally asks people if he is wrong and admits he could be wrong and offers to let people correct him. This whole “Oh don’t name names! oh no that is so bad” attitude is absolutely silly. It seems your position is that openly calling people who promote false beliefs who are publicly proclaiming them is a sin. That is false. If everyone had your attitude the church would be even more rampant with false teachers and in utter chaos more than it is right now. You also have a weak argument that someone has to personally know someone to know they are bad. Did you have to know Hitler to know he was a racist and an evil man? Did you have to know Jeffrey Dahmer to know he was a cannibal and a killer? Did you have to know Osama Bin Laden to know he was a heretic, idolater and murderer in a false religion? Using your logic you have no right to judge Osama bin Laden at all unless you met him. I guess Seal Team 6 met him in person and then had the right to shoot him.

            “Me: Key word “face to face”. Have you spoken with those you call out as heretics face to face?”

            Again our argument is fallacious and unrealistic and just wrong. I don’t have to know them face to face to know their teachings are seriously in error and contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ in the Bible.

            “Me: The point is that the Word of God converts sinners and keeps them in the paths of righteousness, not expositions of false teachers and blog rants.”

            The Word of God does save people, but listening to heretics who enjoy fame and attention who promote a false and dangerous belief do not save people but keep them in sin. To correctly divide truth from error you must sometimes expose error. If someone says 2+2=5 I have to say that that is a false belief and wrong. And if they say “Mr. Huckster” taught me in math at school that 2+2=5 I will reply and say “Mr. Huckster is wrong. He is either deluded or he is lying to you.” I will then say the idea that 2+2=5 is wrong and that 2+2=4. Sometimes you must talk about the error in order to correct people. In anything if people do something wrong they need to be informed. If someone is teaching a bad idea or something stupid they should be called out to change their view and be enlightened to truth. This is common sense.

            “Me: “expose individuals”. I am sure we all have issues worthy of exposition.”

            Everyone sins. But that is not the point of my article. My article is a direct confrontation of the teachings that I believe are dangerous error that Tommy Green teaches through his band Sleeping Giant. It is irrelevant if I sinned before. Just because someone else did something wrong in the past does not mean they cannot call something out on another issue. This is a fallacious argument. You are creating a smoke screen and shifting the goal posts.

            “”biblically grounded” is the premise behind my replies. I am not completely dismissing your work.”

            You better not be. After all you have no right to tell me I am wrong because you have never met me in person face to face and you don’t even know me. See how your logic works?

            ” I could just as easily pick apart your writing and the authors of the books you suggest and publicly call all error I find as heresy.”

            No you couldn’t. At least honestly.

            ” Would I being doing you or them biblical justice by calling you or them a heretic.”

            No. Because I am not and you could not prove it through the bible either. Nor do you honestly believe I am…or do you? If so prove it.

            “There are always two sides of a story, we do not know if someone repented of a particular sin or have grown out of particular ignorance concerning Scripture. God is long-suffering and allows us all room to grow. If not, we would all be crushed like a bug a long time ago.”

            Nowhere has any public statement been given, or any change of belief in any media present with Sleeping Giant or Tommy Green or anyone else who associates with that scene. Therefore, I am correct in what I am doing. Even if he does repent it is still good to make sure people know the past beliefs of someone were mad. I would then update or write a new post about their conversion to Christ and view them differently. If Tommy Green wants to repent he can. I hope he does. God is forgiving and full of grace.

  4. I suppose we can debate this all day. However let the Scripture speak for itself-

    Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

    Mr. Green publicly claims to be a follow of Jesus Christ and a recipient of his salvation found in Romans 10:9-10. So I am not sure how you can dismiss him a a heretic along with Osama Bin Laden?

    Based on this public statement alone he deserves personal communication to see if he can be “gained” if he is the one who needs gaining.

    Mr. Green has also stated he is a servant of Christ-

    Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

    Have you soon forgotten that all of our righteousness is a filthy rag?

    Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    This means that the only goodness in us worth anything is Jesus Christ in the Person of the Holy Spirit.

    So either he has the Holy Spirit or he does not. If you both have the Spirit of God indwelling with you, you are on equal grounds regardless of your personalities and mode of worship.

    I am not saying that his “charismatic” experiences are biblical, just as I would not claim the arrogance and pride of the independent fundamentalist to be biblical.

    Do you assume that every believer once born-again becomes a seasoned experienced person of Scripture overnight. Could it be that Tommy Green is a young Christian that God is molding and shaping as he does all of his children.

    I know I know, you have already stated that “your” theology can not be picked a part “honestly”. Why is that? Are you infallible. Have you arrived to full maturation spiritually. This would be a “LIE” that could easily be exposed.

    Am I called to examine this man’s life? No! I am called to examine my own life.

    1 Corinthians 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

    2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    • “I suppose we can debate this all day. However let the Scripture speak for itself-”

      ok I will.

      “Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.”

      So now I have to travel to Redlands, California and find Tommy Green address because simply responding to a youtube video on my blog, where he spoke at Biola university is not good enough and it is not following the bible? How about you come over to where I live right now and meet me face to face before you criticize my blog. Don’t be a hypocrite. Obviously, your idea is wrong and its a lame excuse to protect a rock star you like.

      “Mr. Green publicly claims to be a follow of Jesus Christ and a recipient of his salvation found in Romans 10:9-10. So I am not sure how you can dismiss him a a heretic along with Osama Bin Laden?”

      I did not compare him to Osama bin Laden. I was using an analogy about being able to assume a person is wrong without meeting them face to face. You are being intellectually dishonest now and straw manning.
      Did you know Josef Smith claimed to be a recipient of salvation and also a follower of Jesus Christ? Did you know the Pope claims to follow Jesus Christ? Did you know Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to follow Jesus Christ? So are they now real Christians because they simply claim it? Are you so guillible? Does the bible clearly state “false Christs, and false apostles” have come? Does it say there is “false gospels”? I thought I showed you Scripture. Apparently you ignored it.

      “Based on this public statement alone he deserves personal communication to see if he can be “gained” if he is the one who needs gaining.”

      He does not DESERVE anything.

      “Mr. Green has also stated he is a servant of Christ-”

      Dennis Rader the BTK killer also claimed to be a Christian. So should I believe him as well? I should believe ANYONE who states they are a servant of Christ?

      “Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.”

      Oh please. This verse is talking specifically about actual servents (slaves) where other people will judge another’s slave in their behavior. The context of the passage is surrounded by anti-legalistic language against strict law followers. Especially about foods. Read the entire chapter. This has nothing to do with false teaching and the wild claims of traveling to “the heavenlies” that Tommy Green claims. And his idea that God wants us to do that stuff and be mystical.
      Now, if Green is Jesus’s servant, this does not apply to me since I am Christ’s servant too and I do not have servants of my own. Therefore, I am not judging another man’s servant, but a fellow servant of Christ then. So, biblically according to 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 it is a commandment to judge insiders. And that is what i am doing, therefore I am correct and doing what is right.

      “Have you soon forgotten that all of our righteousness is a filthy rag?”

      Nope.

      ” Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”

      So we are all sinners yes but not all of us are false teachers promoting new age spirituality and saying its real Christianity. Get over yourself with your false humility man.

      “This means that the only goodness in us worth anything is Jesus Christ in the Person of the Holy Spirit.”

      ok.

      “So either he has the Holy Spirit or he does not. If you both have the Spirit of God indwelling with you, you are on equal grounds regardless of your personalities and mode of worship.”

      Okay well what he is teaching and his claims are not holy spirit inspired and I will make the claim i see no evidence of the Holy Spirit in his life. But I see the evidence of nonsense emotions, and possibly demonic experiences in the supernatural realm. Nothing he said was impressive or helpful towards the gospel.

      “I am not saying that his “charismatic” experiences are biblical, just as I would not claim the arrogance and pride of the independent fundamentalist to be biblical.”

      Good. Because it certainly was not biblical what he said.

      “Do you assume that every believer once born-again becomes a seasoned experienced person of Scripture overnight. Could it be that Tommy Green is a young Christian that God is molding and shaping as he does all of his children.”

      Nope. But I dont expect them to join a band, tell people what to believe especially spirit traveling to heaven and having objects implanted in him by Jesus while drinking holy wine and seeing everyone in heaven walking on water and going to heaven and telling people what he say when even Paul himself was not allowed to speak about it. Now if he is a young Christian for real, then he certainly should know that he is unqualified for ministry then. Yet he is acting like he is ap astor. In fact I heard a rumor he is a pastor at a 4 Square church. This is bad news. 1 Timothy 3:6 “He must not be a new convert or he might become conceited and fall into the condemnation of the Devil.” Seems that is his case.

      “I know I know, you have already stated that “your” theology can not be picked a part “honestly”. Why is that? Are you infallible. Have you arrived to full maturation spiritually. This would be a “LIE” that could easily be exposed.”

      So since you cannot actually find a biblcal reason truthfully about my criticisms of Sleeping Giant you are then going to try the old “Hey your not better than anyone either” trick. Doesnt work buddy. You are shifting the goal posts again. And ad hominem attacking me and straw manning again. I never made any of those claims. Please get over yourself.

      “Am I called to examine this man’s life? No! I am called to examine my own life.”

      Stop examining my life hypocrite.

      “1 Corinthians 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.”

      Yep. Last I checked I was not claiming to travel to heaven and baptizing people with water bottled off a stage and claiming I physically hugged Jesus and I have special revelation.

      “2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?”

      Yes I did that thanks. you should too. Have a nice day.

  5. I am not sure how you gathered that I have “examined” your life? Rather defensive I would say. My conversation has been for the purpose of critical thinking for that which is profitable or not concerning the topic you publicly posted. I have not once called you a derogatory name, I am sorry you have resorted to such.

    I will leave you with one last biblical thought-

    If Mr. Green is a blind leader, here are your instructions-

    Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

    I would also encourage you to keep writing that which is profitable and edifying to the believers that God has put in your path. I am not sure where Mr. Green fits in your lane, but I will leave that between you and God. I myself will peacefully withdraw from this conversation, because it is clear to me that it very well maybe outside of my lane. I have seemed to allow my boredom at the moment to get the best of me.

    No hard feelings, I have enjoyed the discussion and only hope that you will allow God’s peace to lead and guide you and not bitterness.

    Keep seeking Him,
    Andy

    • If pointed out your hypocrisy on what is okay and what is okay not to criticize depending on whether or not a person actually has met someone in real life, face to face, or not, then calling you a hypocrite is derogatory then I am guilty. Now if I called you “stupid” or “idiot” or “dumbass” etc…I did nothing close to that. Those are derogatory and baseless. Me calling you out for being hypocritical is not.

      What people like you do is take bible verses out of context all of the time and ignore the sourrinding context in the passage. “Blind leading the blind, leave them alone” is not a command to never ever ever point out false teachers. The situation was when Jesus said it is not what goes intio a man that defiles him, but what comes out the Pharisees got really upset. They were offended. Jesus did not care and said “leave them alone” and said they are blind leading the blind. In that situation in that event he was saying to ignore them and not care they were offended. The Disciples were concerned that they were offended, Jesus was not at all concerned they were offended and was actually pleased they were. This is incredibly different than the faulty interpretation you are trying to throw at me. The rest of the Bible is clear that we are to promote truth, rebuke, reprove, and correct in the bible. It has nothing to do with whether I personally know a popular or semi-famous teacher or not.

      I am not bitter at all about you. In fact I hope my argumentation will somehow persuade you to take my position on the matter and really look deeper into your own ideas about being soft and avoiding conflict or argumentation for biblical truth. And yes I will keep writing the stuff I do because I believe it does help Christians, it promotes truth, and I believe it is honoring God. And I do it out of love for Christians and love for lost souls.

      • LOOOOOL!^ Irrelevant because it would reveal too much about what you partake of that doesn’t align with the misguided junk you’re spewing about real leaders that are doing far more for the kingdom than you’ve ever dreamed of doing while you play keyboard warrior denouncing others’ ministry?

        But, you know… that’s irrelevant.

        • Yes it is irrelevant thanks for making my point. If I am denouncing ministries of false prophets and false teachers such as sleeping giant and other heretics I am doing a good thing.

          Also, Christianity is not a race or competition to see who can accomplish more “Christian things” in their lives than other people. That also does not make one more spiritual or Christian than another. What do you expect, a trophy in heaven? Do you think Tommy Green is going to get a special trophy above other Christians who did not do as many “things” for the kingdom? lol. Maybe a trophy in hell unless he repents.

          Everything I said in this article has been backed up with Scripture. If you got a problem with it, you have a problem with the Bible.

  6. Tommy and bands like Sleeping Giant meas have approached people to Christ that people who think what this article says. I can testify of this.
    God is no respecter of persons.
    From my heart, God bless you.

  7. it actually doesn’t say anywhere that you have to attend church to be a christian in the bible. i had problems with a few other points in your article. i’ll pray for you and your closed mindedness.

    • Why thank you! How very self righteous of you. I am sure God is really impressed. I hope you really, actually pray for me too and are not just saying it to sound holy.

      Oh and I never mentioned anything about whether or not you HAVE to go to church or not to be a Christian. but talked about what TRUE church is if you do attend it.

      • It does say in the bible that you should attend and be part of a local congregation. Now that doesn’t save you but it is one of Gods commands like baptism. That too it doesn’t save you but it’s the 1st step to obiedance to God. Oh here’s your reference to attending church.

        Hebrews 10: 24,25 KJV
        24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
        25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

      • Sir though i applaud your zeal, i must tell you i know tommy Green personally through a band mate of mine who did some mission work in costa rica with him. My dearest friend witnessed with his eyes Tommy Green lay hands on a mans leg who used a cain and in the name of Jesus asked god to heal his leg, and God did…… may I ask where is your fruit is it here on a blog where you defile a man who loves jesus more then ministers I have met…. also he doesnt value spiritual expirances over the scripture he values the presence of Jesus over Scripture which is where scripture has pointed him….. since in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God and the word became flesh and dwelt among men……. also honestly from a pure heart I ask you to evaluate if you have actually met the man I have. In love

        • 1. I don’t have to meet a man personally to be able to criticize teachings he publicly has expressed.

          2. What evidence do you have to prove he healed a mans leg and how can we know for sure it really happened? We can’t. It is purely subjective and and there is no way to prove it, also the Bible does not teach faith healing. Only the apostles were given healing powers, not every Christian in the world. If this is so why not go to a hospital and heal the entire world publicly? All the Apostles are dead. Tommy Green is not an apostle.

          3. Your statement, “also he doesnt value spiritual expirances over the scripture he values the presence of Jesus over Scripture which is where scripture has pointed him” is a contradiction. yes he dos value spiritual experiences over Scripture and you just admitted it. His authority is not on Scripture and what the Word of God teaches, but on his personal experiences where he feels he had the presence of Jesus. He cannot prove he was with Jesus or had any real experiences. It is also purely subjective and unverifiable. The Bible does not teach such experiences or ideas about Jesus as expressed in the video above therefore I think Tommy Green is either lying, delusional and crazy, or speaking with demons pretending they are Jesus so he will teach his stupid doctrines to ignorant christcore kids who hate church and don’t read the bible.

          4. And finally I believe everything you said was in false humility and not in a genuine love, yet a pretentious self righteousness to protect a man who promotes unbiblical teachings. Good day to you sir.

          • Okay youre right I could just be lying…..but do you really think the entire school where you attended with its board members set up to stop false teachings and prevent wrong doctorine is incorrect and you are correct? 17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” 18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. 20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” luke 10-17-20… am i to believe these 72 could do things jesus would not allow me to?
            13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.[b] 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit…. so why in james does it compare us to Elijah? After telling us God will raise him who is sick up and saying with our prayer of faith we can do like Elijah and change this physical world. I know you will not see but whatever i myself have been graciously used by God as a tool and seen physical healing… in jesus name for his glory… If God gets the glory publically idc…. i wont argue anylonger as you have made your mind up that you are correct over etire schools of ministry your interpretation of scripture is supreme and you hold all truth in your mind….. though i will pray God will change your heart about how you ought deal with fellow lovers of Jesus reguardless of small docterine issues…… the point and substace of our faith is a man and i belive when the bible says the same spirit that raised christ from the dead now quickins my mortal body it means literally. … go ahead point out how im taking all these scriptures out of context….however i dont believe Jesus would decive my honest search for him by allowing me to do things contrary to your doctrine if they were contradictory to his…. brother i seek earnestly that the lord may soften your heart toward your brothers who also share this great zeal to see jesus glorified. ….i will not reply again ……also in love

          • Okay CHANGE THE PHYSICAL WORLD! DO IT! Make it stop raining right now. Prove to be your hioly spirit powers right now. Stop with the bullcrap and actually do it. You cant, why? BECAUSE YOU ARE NOA PROPHET IN THE OLD TESTAMENT! Its so obvious.

            The key to the passages is 72. THE 72! You are not one of the 72. That was a temporary power given to the 72 disciples. Later Jesus sends only the 12 and they do the same stuff.

            Elijah had our nature because he was human, but he was also a prophet and called to that ministry and God gave him such miracles to do. If this applied to us every Christian would be able to make it stop raining or rain whenever they want. But that does not happen and you know it.

            2 cor. 12:12 says “The signs of a true Apostle are signs wonders and miracles.” Are you an Apostle? If not then signs, wonders and miracles do not apply to you. If they did then every Christian would be an Aspotle. Sorry but Apostles do not exist today. The signs and miracles were a temporary power that was given to Apostles and their close associates to demonstrate God’s power in order to prove their revelation and teaching was from God. It also revealed God’s character to have compassion on the suffering which points to the Gospel. It is not a command everyone should have super powers. This is ridiculous.

            Now you go on and start making baseless claims about how I feel and what I believe. No one is perfect and not my interpretation is either, but I believe my interpretation is factual and correct in this context. I also went to Biola and graduated and saw first hand the nonsense they allow and teach. They are from from a university that holds to pure biblical truth, they allow much false teachings and Tommy Green being allowed to speak is one of them.

            You will not reply again because you have no valid arguments, but emotional appeals about how you feel and your experiences you claim, not from the teachings from Scripture from the pages of the Bible. You twist the verses and use them out of context to support your charismatic claims.

            And just like all the others you leave with a self righteous claim to pray for me (when I know you wont).

            Jesus won’t believe you but your heart will deceive you and so will false teachers like Tommy Green. Men unqualified for ministry and teaching made up doctrines while claiming he does not like doctrines. Makes no sense. Also if you are not looking at Christ in the Bible but your own feelings of what you think God should be like you will never come to the truth.

            You share zeal for another god not the God for the bible. You should really start re-thinking your positions.

          • The plausability of God being real is easily supported by many things. Since you believe God is real it is useless arguing with you for WHY God exists when you already believe He exists.
            If God exists and the Bible is His word and what He is teaching then any behavior or action you do claiming to be spiritual has to line up with THE BIBLE and if it does not, and Tommy Green’s certainly does not, then it is NOT true and no one should believe it and it is also sinful.

            The Christian hardcore scene got overrun by pretentious hipsters and postmodernists who dont value God’s Word and always say “Hey bro dont judge duuuude its not cool braah!” No one is taking Gods Word seriously and all of the heresies have overrun the Christcore scene and I am sick of it and left. I would rather listen to secular hardcore, at least their lyrics don’t contradict a worldview they express. If you express Christianity you shouold be Biblical and follow Christ’s commands and not make up your own theology out of your butt like Sleeping Giant seems to do. They promote heresy.

    • It does say in the bible that you should attend and be part of a local congregation. Now that doesn’t save you but it is one of Gods commands like baptism. That too it doesn’t save you but it’s the 1st step to obiedance to God. Oh here’s your reference to attending church.

      Hebrews 10: 24,25 KJV
      24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
      25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

      • We are saved by faith alone through Christ alone. You are correct. But God commands we should attend church and fellowship. You cannot deny other Christians simply bc they are not hardcore kids or street kids, All of the “Dont judge us” bullcrap can easily said back at you. Stop judging the men in suits who preach at a building, stop judging the old ladies who make church coffee who do not understand why your ears are stretched to 000, and stop judging typical Christians who don’t know your music. You are not the church, if you claim to be a part of the church then FELLOWSHIP! You think you are better than them? Ohhhhh but they JUDGE you ohhh poor you! You are such a victim of church!

        Of course churches need work and none are perfect. It is a tough life. You dont have to attend a church to be a Christian, but you should. And you should stop claiming a hardcore concert is church when its clearly not. Fellowship is not buying a ticket online and showing up at a concert venue and moshing. Church is regular continued fellowship through preaching of the Word through the BIBLE. It is not hyping yourself up to speak in tongues and claim you saw Jesus in heaven and back. People like Tommy Green and Matty McGomery promote outright heresy and do not believe in SOLA SCRIPTURA. They do not promote a faith that saves people from hell, but allows them to live in sin unchecked.

        • Man i ran accross this post again and i just realized how dumb i was being for aguing with someone who doesnt believe in the power of God. And i did pray for you has anyone come across your path to help show you the works of christ by the holyspirit is real? Even if not you should not bash lovers of jesus….. and i hope you dont get to mad at me to enjoy my company in heaven lol

          • Why do you use straw man arguments instead of actual true arguments against the actual claims I made and the scripture I used? Everything you said is completely false about what I claim or believe and even do.

            How can I enter heaven if I am one who bashes “lovers of Christ” and I dont believe in the power of the holy spirit? Also if I am a pharisee how can I enter heaven with you, oh righteous one?

  8. You are wrong about “Sleeping Giant” sir! You are being very judgmental, negative, as well as vindictive in your blog & comments! They do bring up scripture all the time. And they believe in the doctrine and gospel. There just saying there are people like you who criticize and abandon people for not understanding the personal relationship with Jesus & not to worship the doctrine. “Well the men of God and reformers of the faith never worshiped doctrines.” Yes, so you are agreeing with them right now about what they said in the video. “But doctrines are the basis of what Christians believe and they help people understand the Bible. They are confessions of biblical truth.” Yes & yes we Christians all know this, as does Sleeping Giant. “Throwing away doctrines makes it a theological free-for-all where anything goes.” Ok, let me stop you there again… You are arguing with yourself ’cause they never say in the video or ever that they’re throwing away the doctrines. “The Bible says true salvation from sin and death comes by faith through repentance and belief in God. It is a total heart change and open confession of Christ making Him Lord of your life. It is not done by hand signs, gestures, feelings, going to a hardcore show and moshing etc” Stop… So you had to throw “feelings” in there huh? So there are no feelings in total change of your heart? No feelings in open confession? I can’t find Faith in Jesus through a hardcore show that preaches the Gospel in there lyrics & in between each song? You are very misguided in your teachings. “I would know because I have been to one of their shows, I have been to many bands shows who claim Christ, I have been to many charismatic church gatherings, I went to Biola University, and I have been around and seen a lot! I know that nothing like this ever changes a person’s heart. ” Ok let me take that chip off your shoulder… How dare you say you know nothing like this ever changes a person’s heart… Do you know everyone’s heart? Are you God? My heart can be changed from anyone talking about Jesus. I can watch a coca-cola commercial and feel love in it and then have it open my heart and have it be a little seed to open my heart for God & to read the bible & follow Jesus & become a Christian. You’re the man that promotes & is worshiping the doctrine and not Jesus himself. “It is not an emotional experience that changes a person.” Let’s stop here… Really? So how is it “not” an emotional experience? If a person goes through a break up & heart is broken, instead of suicide seek Jesus to make their heart whole, if a person lost their whole family in death and that leads him to Jesus through questioning “why did this happen?”, if a drug addict goes through intense experiences & of course emotion & that person decides to get off drugs & follow Christ… None of these experiences have any emotion? “It is objective truth being understood and rationally accepted by someone’s mind through God, and by God alone.” Stop… Through Jesus & Jesus alone (John14:6). “Not by human effort or emotional manipulation.” Stop… I am a “human” and by my effort in the belief of the gospel & Jesus I manipulate my emotion to follow the one and only true God! “This is done by preaching and someone hearing the Bible’s message (Romans 10:14).” Hello? Tommy Green & Sleeping Giant do preach the gospel! “Many people who go to such charismatic gatherings never change and are just as vile, wicked, angry, manipulative, mean spirited, and sexually immoral as they were before they had that experience.” Ok, this can be true in some, but not all situations. You make it sound hopeless and very negative towards those who don’t change right on the spot and hopeless towards the charismatic gathering. Where’s the “HOPE”? The point is to meet them where they are. This dosen’t mean a seed wasn’t planted and they will never be saved & decide to obey the gospel & follow Jesus. The point is to plant the seed/idea of a better life through Jesus. You are the type of guy that makes people who don’t believe not want to ever believe in Christ by your efforts of being judgmental & negative towards the unsaved. My conclusion! “It is also absolutely a shame that Biola University who started on the foundation of God’s Word and Biblical beliefs has gone so far left and off the narrow path to embrace such self proclaimed morons to speak to their students as if they are a spiritual “giant” and super deep, or have something profound to say when they basically have ADHD and sound like a lame version of Jim Carey or trying to be Wayne’s World.” So put down the entire Biola University huh? And calling people “morons” is what Gospel teaches us huh? As well as mockery & sarcasm? I can go on & on as you have, contradicting you, but I think this is enough. You have a lot of demons of your own to rid yourself of… And I do & will pray for people like you who bring down your fellow man using scriptures that don’t pertain to the situation. Note: I will not be replying to you & going in circles. Now That being said I’m sure P.O.D & The Whosoevers are devil worshipers in your eyes… If you’re in So Cal, come to Diamond Bar Calavary Chapel off Golden Springs on Friday nights to hear The Whosoevers. -PURPORA

    • Ok then! Here I go!

      “You are wrong about “Sleeping Giant” sir! You are being very judgmental, negative, as well as vindictive in your blog & comments!”

      On what basis to you make that **JUDGMENT** sir?

      “They do bring up scripture all the time.”

      yes but out of context and improperly interpreted. please refer to this actual blog article for information on why then please answer the arguments present and provide evidence for why I am wrong.

      “And they believe in the doctrine and gospel.”

      No they dont. Constantly Tommy and his buds belittle “doctrine” and say they dont believe in a doctrine or creeds and say people are worshiping doctrines. That is very impossible since Christianity itself is a doctrine and so is any claim about God.

      “There just saying there are people like you who criticize and abandon people for not understanding the personal relationship with Jesus & not to worship the doctrine.”

      Hence why they are against doctrines. They believe in the doctrine of anti-doctrine which is a self defeating position and illogical. And I dont abandon people. But I do call out people to start following the truth. Who is abandoning whom? The wild charismatics who took over the Christian punk scene are the ones who reject church and insult people who go to church in buildings, you know those old ladies who make church coffee in the morning, the pastors in a suit and tie etc. Who is judging? Who is abandoning? Well you christcore kids and band members who belittle church and complain they are victims of the very thing God commands us to participate in. Church is lined out all in the new testament in many DOCTRINES that Paul presented to the Thessalonians and Timothy. read it!

      ” “Well the men of God and reformers of the faith never worshiped doctrines.” Yes, so you are agreeing with them right now about what they said in the video. “But doctrines are the basis of what Christians believe and they help people understand the Bible. They are confessions of biblical truth.” Yes & yes we Christians all know this, as does Sleeping Giant.”

      no actually I am not agreeing with them and if sleeping giant does know this they are being irresponsible and telling kids not to care about doctrines.

      ” “Throwing away doctrines makes it a theological free-for-all where anything goes.” Ok, let me stop you there again… You are arguing with yourself ’cause they never say in the video or ever that they’re throwing away the doctrines.”

      yes they did in so many words. That exact phrase? Maybe not but the exact communication of the same meaning? yes.

      ” “The Bible says true salvation from sin and death comes by faith through repentance and belief in God. It is a total heart change and open confession of Christ making Him Lord of your life. It is not done by hand signs, gestures, feelings, going to a hardcore show and moshing etc” Stop… So you had to throw “feelings” in there huh? So there are no feelings in total change of your heart? No feelings in open confession?”

      I never said Christians dont have feelings. You are presenting a straw man. But putting your faith in emotions and feelings is dangerous and is not what proves your salvation. Our hearts are deceitful as Jeremiah said and if you listen to your heart and feelings you are liable to believe lies. Only the Bible can help you understand if you are saved. Not goosbumps at a hardcore show.

      ” I can’t find Faith in Jesus through a hardcore show that preaches the Gospel in there lyrics & in between each song?”

      I never said that. A lot of people were saved at hardcore, punk, metal shows. As long as the band promotes the truth and not heresy like what sleeping giant promotes then yes. But is a hardcore show church? NO! ITS NOT CHURCH!

      ” You are very misguided in your teachings.”

      No im not.

      ” “I would know because I have been to one of their shows, I have been to many bands shows who claim Christ, I have been to many charismatic church gatherings, I went to Biola University, and I have been around and seen a lot! I know that nothing like this ever changes a person’s heart. ” Ok let me take that chip off your shoulder… How dare you say you know nothing like this ever changes a person’s heart… Do you know everyone’s heart? Are you God? ”

      It does not change a person’s heart because it is not from God nor is it biblical. The nonsense ecstasy you guys experience in your wild behavior is not biblical salvation or anything from God but your own emotions. In my experience people doing such thing as speaking in tongues, moshing to christian hardcore, claiming to see visions ect still live sinful lives without any remorse and no sense of personal holiness. This is unlke what you see in the bible where men were changed and constantly sanctified and there is proof. James 2:13.

      “My heart can be changed from anyone talking about Jesus. I can watch a coca-cola commercial and feel love in it and then have it open my heart and have it be a little seed to open my heart for God & to read the bible & follow Jesus & become a Christian.”

      Coca-Cola Christianity? That makes no sense. So now people can be saved by watching a commercial for Coke? How so?

      ” You’re the man that promotes & is worshiping the doctrine and not Jesus himself.”

      no i am not. I am worshiping the God found in Scripture. A God that teaches doctrines we should follow. If you do not have the bible you do not have Jesus.

      ” “It is not an emotional experience that changes a person.” Let’s stop here… Really? So how is it “not” an emotional experience? If a person goes through a break up & heart is broken, instead of suicide seek Jesus to make their heart whole, if a person lost their whole family in death and that leads him to Jesus through questioning “why did this happen?”, if a drug addict goes through intense experiences & of course emotion & that person decides to get off drugs & follow Christ… None of these experiences have any emotion?”

      none of those experiences give someone salvation. They are simply things that could cause someone to look for answers and depending on if the Holy Spirit wills, then he will convert them and they will be changed by God and saved through Christ. not feelings, not emotions. A christian experiences emotions but these emotions do not save in themselves and emotions can lie. That very same x druggy can go back to drugs and then deny christ just as he easily claimed to accept christ. Experience is not authoritative, only Gods word is.

      ” “It is objective truth being understood and rationally accepted by someone’s mind through God, and by God alone.” Stop… Through Jesus & Jesus alone (John14:6).”

      Jesus is God.

      ““Not by human effort or emotional manipulation.” Stop… I am a “human” and by my effort in the belief of the gospel & Jesus I manipulate my emotion to follow the one and only true God!”

      So you save yourself because of your own merit? This is heresy and exactly the opposite of what the bible teaches. We are saved by faith alone through christ alone and it is a gift from God not your own merit or desire to be good and “manipulate emotions.” That is not taught in the bible anywhere.

      ““This is done by preaching and someone hearing the Bible’s message (Romans 10:14).” Hello? Tommy Green & Sleeping Giant do preach the gospel!”

      no they dont. They preach a false gospel. I already explained why in the actual article. Please refer to it.

      ““Many people who go to such charismatic gatherings never change and are just as vile, wicked, angry, manipulative, mean spirited, and sexually immoral as they were before they had that experience.” Ok, this can be true in some, but not all situations.”

      Most situations.

      ” You make it sound hopeless and very negative towards those who don’t change right on the spot and hopeless towards the charismatic gathering. Where’s the “HOPE”? The point is to meet them where they are.”

      People are changed on the spot and thus instantly saved and have a changed heart on the spot. They then work towards sanctification and have true conviction to change and it is obvious they will change not remain in the same sins with no concern. Jesus never met people where they were at in their sins. Jesus told them the truth. He did not hold back and commanded people to repent and follow Him. He did not lower himself to be a sinner to help sinners or associate and work with unrighteous people. Spending time preaching and teaching tax collectors and sinners is not the same as “becoming one of them to meet them where they are at.”

      “”This dosen’t mean a seed wasn’t planted and they will never be saved & decide to obey the gospel & follow Jesus. The point is to plant the seed/idea of a better life through Jesus. You are the type of guy that makes people who don’t believe not want to ever believe in Christ by your efforts of being judgmental & negative towards the unsaved.”

      How very judgmental and negative of you to say. Hypocrite.

      “My conclusion! “It is also absolutely a shame that Biola University who started on the foundation of God’s Word and Biblical beliefs has gone so far left and off the narrow path to embrace such self proclaimed morons to speak to their students as if they are a spiritual “giant” and super deep, or have something profound to say when they basically have ADHD and sound like a lame version of Jim Carey or trying to be Wayne’s World.” So put down the entire Biola University huh?”

      Yes. As a Christian university I do.

      “And calling people “morons” is what Gospel teaches us huh? As well as mockery & sarcasm? I can go on & on as you have, contradicting you, but I think this is enough.”

      Tommy Green said he was a moron and I was agreeing with him that he is a “self proclaimed” moron. He said it. Im simply explaining you should not be preaching if you are a moron or if you think you are a moron. Mockery and sarcasm have their place in Christianity for standing up for truth against error. please read the bible and find examples when Peter and Paul and old testament prophets such as Isaiah mocked and insulted heretics and pagans who were in opposition to God and the Gospel. It is also called having a sense of humor while speaking truth to someone who needs to be rebuked.

      ” You have a lot of demons of your own to rid yourself of… And I do & will pray for people like you who bring down your fellow man using scriptures that don’t pertain to the situation. Note: I will not be replying to you & going in circles. Now That being said I’m sure P.O.D & The Whosoevers are devil worshipers in your eyes… If you’re in So Cal, come to Diamond Bar Calavary Chapel off Golden Springs on Friday nights to hear The Whosoevers. -PURPORA”

      Scriptures i used all pertain to the situation in this article. If you claim they do not back it up and prove it. Dont just make baseless claims and a hypocritical self righteous claim that you will pray for me when I know you wont.

      yes POD do promote heretical ideas and it is a shame. I dont know who the whosoevers are but if they have the same beliefs such as the New Apostolic Reformation and extra biblical ideas of visions and a lack of holiness and GOSPEL TRUTH as in THIS IS TRUE IN THE BIBLE then yes I would say they are probably heretics too. Devil worshipers though? no, just heretics who believe in a false god and false gospel who twist scripture and care about poularity who believe the lies of satan, yes.
      if I was in SoCal still I would pass on that offer. I dont need to see nonsense ive already seen a thousand times before. And of course youw ill not reply because you really don’t have a valid argument against me but you appeal to emotions only and not logic.

      the Christian metal hardcore punk scene’s majority is devoid of biblical truth.

  9. Sorry whitedragonawa you sound just like a pharisee! You know casting out demons with demons! I have been misled by mans teachings of the bible. Some have tried to lay their hands on and heal (as Jesus says to do in Matt 28) but only works with those how believe. I have healed people in Jesus name and cast out demons in Jesus name. Jesus said in Acts 1:8 that we will receive POWER when the Holy Spirit comes upon you so that we will be his witness on earth. So what is your power? Theology? Mans idea of what scripture says? Or are you lead by the Holy Spirit to use scripture to curse what was created in God’s image( James 3:9-10)? Are you going to judge me because I do things that Jesus clearly said I could and will do if I only believed? Am i a heretic if i tell an new believer that they can to if they just believe?
    I pray that you start using the energy and passion you use to cut other believers down and casting doubt and fear of true spiritual things in other people and focus on leading the lost to a relationship with Jesus. I’ve been where you are at and its leading you into bondage. John 21:20-23 Follow Jesus. That’s all you can do. You cannot dictate other people’s experiences with Jesus.

    • Sigh…

      In what way do I sound like a pharisee? And who gave you the right to judge me in that way since you guys already claim it is wrong to judge. So why are you judging me as a pharisee? I was not casting out any demons, but if you want to admit in a way my article is fighting against demonic teachings then I will agree with you. but pharisees never cast out demons with demons. Pharisees never cast out demons period. Only the Apostles and at certain times other disciples were casting out demons through Christ’s power in the new testament era. The pharisees are the ones who accused Jesus of casting out demons with demons. So in what you say, in actuality, it is not me acting like a pharisee in this case, it is you since you used an argument that pharisees actually used against Christ. So that tells me one thing about you…the true pharisee is you.

      “I have been misled by mans teachings of the bible”

      What exactly do you mean by man’s teachings of the Bible? What does the bible teach? And how do you interpret what is true in the Bible if you will not listen to a man preaching to you?

      “only works with those how believe.”

      The bible says otherwise. Everyone who came to Christ or anyone who was there was healed. Not everyone believed who was healed either. not everyone was already believing before they were healed. Your idea that one must believe is a lie. God’s power is not demondent on how man feels about him. God’s power is onmipotent. Nothing can get in the way of His will, not anyone’s unbelief or anything else.

      “I have healed people in Jesus name and cast out demons in Jesus name. ”

      your problem is you cannot prove this and there is no evidence to suggest you actually did this. It also could be that you are delusional and think you did something you actually didn’t.

      “Acts 1:8 that we will receive POWER when the Holy Spirit comes upon you so that we will be his witness on earth.”

      That speaks nothing about having the ability to fight demons, cast them out, or heal people with miraculous powers instantly. Noting in that verse is talking about those things. All it is talking about is the power to proclaim Christ and not falter in your Christian witness.
      Besides, in that verse the Apostles had already received miraculous powers before that. So how can they receive a power they already received? It makes no sense. I logically has to be talking about ANOTHER power that has nothing to do with the miracle and supernatural gifts they ALREADY had. How can I give you a gift I already gave you? How can you receive a gift you already had received? The power spoken of in Acts 1:8 is ONLY the power to witness JUSt as it says. The power to boldly declare the truth in the face of all the wickedness and plots against Christianity in the world. The fact they would die in their faith for the cause of Christ. That takes power. Power in that sense is given by God yet it is not a super power such as healing etc. Looking at the CORRECT BIBLICAL CONTEXT one can easily know this if you have read the bible much.

      “So what is your power? Theology? Mans idea of what scripture says? Or are you lead by the Holy Spirit to use scripture to curse what was created in God’s image( James 3:9-10)?”

      My power is the same as in Acts 1:8 like I mentioned above. When you say man’s idea of what Scripture says do you believe it is impossible for men to understand what exactly the Bible says? It seems you personally believe that you know what the Bible says. What is the difference between YOUR understanding of what Scripture teaches and what man’s idea of what Scripture teaches? Is there a difference? If you know the truth I guess what you think is I must agree 100% with what you say as you must be the absolute truth of Scripture?
      How can one be led by the Holy Spirit to curse God’s own creation and plans in his image? I dont understand how I can use God to curse God’s image. That makes absolutely no sense. Apparently if someone takes the Scripture as absolute truth and expresses a hard stance on a Scriptural issue you think that is wrong. So basically where does your truth come? Your own feelings? or from the bible itself? If it comes from the bible how do you know you are correct and I am wrong? Explain.
      It seems like you think Scripture study is a curse and evil to do.

      “Are you going to judge me because I do things that Jesus clearly said I could and will do if I only believed? Am i a heretic if i tell an new believer that they can to if they just believe?”

      Actually yes. I will judge you in the fact that what you are telling me is unscriptural and a false teaching. And if you teach the same thing to other people, then yes you are promoting heresy and yes you are a heretic. Also what you said above about God clearly teaching you contradicts your earlier statements about “man’s teaching of the Bible.” If man cannot teach the bible properly then neither can you. There are a lot of holes in your arguments. You have an illogical belief system about God’s word and the Holy Spirit.
      I will also say that nothing you said is clearly taught in scripture as none of what you have said is actually taught in scripture but are scripture you twisted to fit your own agenda.

      “I pray that you start using the energy and passion you use to cut other believers down and casting doubt and fear of true spiritual things in other people and focus on leading the lost to a relationship with Jesus.”

      I do not believe you will pray for me and I believe your statement is false humility and a self righteous way to close out an argument. And nothing in my article cut other believers down since 1. If someone truly believes in that way I question his salvation and believe he is most likely not saved and 2. If he is saved he is definitely wrong as I have proven in the article itself by using the Bible and he needs to repent and get back on track.
      So nothing I said cuts people down, it actually is a means by which to be built up. Be humble to recieve correction. He actually asked if he was wrong and if he needs to be corrected in the video when he was at Biola. I am simply giving him correction he asked for. Or was his statement typical false humility? “Am I wrong I could be so please show me….but actually do not show me bc Im trying to sound humble and if you do correct me you are a jerk and unchristian and judgmental…”

      ” I’ve been where you are at and its leading you into bondage. John 21:20-23 Follow Jesus. That’s all you can do. You cannot dictate other people’s experiences with Jesus.””

      Your citation of John 21:20-23 makes no sense. Unless, you are implying that I am Judas and am betraying Christ and will turn Him in for 30 peices of silver. How is that so? Maybe you are implying I am a false Christian and a betrayer of God, in that case that is very judgmental and makes you a hypocrite. you tell me not to judge but then judge me back and assume I am a reprobate who will go to hell. You should take those Words back since God will hold you accountable for them.
      You cannot follow Jesus unless you follow His Word. If you ignore His Word you are not a follower of Jesus. You do not have Jesus without the Bible. “Those who love me obey my commands.” Then you say I cannot dictate to others about their experiences with Jesus yet you are dictating mine making you even more of a hypocrite. Your statement is illogical. 1. It is wrong to tell people their experience with God is wrong. 2. You dictated to another person about their experience with Jesus being wrong. 3. Your experience with God is wrong. That way of argumentation is self defeating and a total contradiction. Do you not understand this? You say in so many words “It is wrong to dictate other’s experiences with Jesus after I already have told you that you are wrong.” And I would reply “On what authority do you claim it is wrong to dictate experiences with Jesus while at the exact same time dictating mine?” You do not follow logic. You also do not actually love God’s Word.

      • ITs not judging to state a fact , that fact being youre acting like aPharisee. I like how you think you have the final interpretation of scripture and you are the only one who is right…. that is acting like a Pharisee. Its not judging its just the fact of the matter…… i too have healed people on jesus name ….. and no i dont have xrays to prove it probably because i pray over complete strangers and dont get there contact info so i can get their metical records because i don t care if i can prove it im too busy trying to touch their heart with the love of jesus….. “why dont you just go into a hospita . And. Heal everyone?” Why dont you first ask why jesus only healed the one lame man at the pool that was stired daily and the first one in was healed. .. think about it there was prpbably hundreds waiting to jump in yet he only heals one…. why…… he does nothing he dosent see the father do , so i understandthat when i pray for someone and healing dosent come im either not in Gods timing or something bevause im not following the leading of the spirit and its something i want…. but when he does heal through me i know i am doing his will. And the whole emotipns thing ….. lol see if you cry at your closest friends funeral …. we know you will …but im not allowed to cry when the holy spirit of almighty God entersy body? Cummon so its cool for a bunch of people to paint their bodys and scream for a team but i cant yell and get excited aboit the blood of the lamb that takes away the sins of the world. Dude i hope that you truely are saved and do know Jesus, however you can have your lame, dead, unsalted cracker theology and ill have my Gods alive and so full of power he works miracles today theology…..y God is so full fo love he cant help but to touch peoples hearts and male them cry or laugh
        Dont forget how jesus told us to pray “your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven” let your will be done on earth ..,, so tell me are people sick and broken in heaven? Then why would jesus tell us to pray Gods kindom come on earth …,, cuz god wants to invade us weather through healing or teaching or worshiping HIS KINGDOM COME…….and when it does its freaking crazy…. you think heavens so normal no its gping to be the weirdest thing you’ve ever seen with beast that have 4 faces and junk dude youre gonna freak

        • Really now…

          “ITs not judging to state a fact , that fact being youre acting like aPharisee.”

          Oh is it a fact? Can you prove it? I think the one with facts is me and I supported it clearly throughout the article even with scripture. Can you please show me where I am wrong or why I am a pharisee? bring up a valid argument instead of insults.

          ” I like how you think you have the final interpretation of scripture and you are the only one who is right….”

          I do think I am right in the article but it is simply a lie from you that I believe I have the final interpretation of Scripture and I am the only one who is right. This is called an ad hominem attack and also a version of straw man argument. Take a logic class and look up fallacious arguments and you can learn something about how to actually argue a true point.

          ” that is acting like a Pharisee. Its not judging its just the fact of the matter……”

          No facts were said by you.

          ” i too have healed people on jesus name ….. and no i dont have xrays to prove it probably because i pray over complete strangers and dont get there contact info so i can get their metical records because i don t care if i can prove it im too busy trying to touch their heart with the love of jesus…..”

          Well aren’t you just so righteous and better than me! How great! You are so holy! Yeah you pray over them, give them a delusion to think they are healed and walk away. When you don’t know it, but they are really not healed and still feel the infirmity or pain they had before and you can feel self satisfied you have some spiritual power and never have to make a follow up call to make sure they are still healed.

          ““why dont you just go into a hospita . And. Heal everyone?” Why dont you first ask why jesus only healed the one lame man at the pool that was stired daily and the first one in was healed. .. think about it there was prpbably hundreds waiting to jump in yet he only heals one….”

          Yeah at that pool. But Jesus on earth healed everyone who came up to them. They did not have hospitals like we have today as anyone who had s ickness or injury was left in bad shape on the streets or in home able to do nothing but beg. Jesus healed hundreds of people all the time everywhere, every day, did not turn anyone away. Can you claim the same power? Even the apostles did the exact same thing after Christ’s death and resurrection.

          ” why…… he does nothing he dosent see the father do , so i understandthat when i pray for someone and healing dosent come im either not in Gods timing or something bevause im not following the leading of the spirit and its something i want….”

          Where in the Bible is this idea found about when a healing can or cannot occur? Did you just make it up as an excuse for the many people you fail to heal so you can still feel special?

          ” but when he does heal through me i know i am doing his will. And the whole emotipns thing ….. lol see if you cry at your closest friends funeral …. we know you will …but im not allowed to cry when the holy spirit of almighty God entersy body?”

          The holy spirit enters the body at conversion. When one repents and puts their faith in Jesus. certain times and occassions crying happens. But every second, and using music to hypnotize or stir extreme emotions and hype yourself up is not a valid form of worship and it will not cause someone to be healed.

          ” Cummon so its cool for a bunch of people to paint their bodys and scream for a team but i cant yell and get excited aboit the blood of the lamb that takes away the sins of the world.”

          Sure you can be, but there is reverence to God that we don’t hold to entertainment like a sports team. There is a serious difference from God and going crazy at a show in a mosh pit for a good time. I am not going to have a mosh pit in church.

          ” Dude i hope that you truely are saved and do know Jesus, however you can have your lame, dead, unsalted cracker theology and ill have my Gods alive and so full of power he works miracles today theology…..y God is so full fo love he cant help but to touch peoples hearts and male them cry or laugh”

          I really do not think you are sincere about me being saved. You obviously think you are better than me and stated it clearly. You then tell me my beliefs are lame and dead. God will hold you accountable for your blasphemy. I would repent if I were you. It seems your God is so full of love yet he motions you to insult anyone who does not agree with you. So far I have not seen any scripture or facts you claim to have to back up your arguments. You simply insult and mock me.

          “Dont forget how jesus told us to pray “your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven” let your will be done on earth ..,, so tell me are people sick and broken in heaven? Then why would jesus tell us to pray Gods kindom come on earth …,,”

          No people are not sick and broken in heaven. That is because it is heaven, not earth where sin is and satan reigns. We pray for God’s will to be done, not our own will to be done. We pray for the kingdom to come to redeem all of God’s people and bring justice to the world at the end. Earth is not heaven and we should not wish it to be. God will create a new heaven and new earth for a reason.

          ” cuz god wants to invade us weather through healing or teaching or worshiping HIS KINGDOM COME…….and when it does its freaking crazy…. you think heavens so normal no its gping to be the weirdest thing you’ve ever seen with beast that have 4 faces and junk dude youre gonna freak”

          No heaven will not be weird. Different? yes. but not weird. yes it will be normal. it will be beautiful. It will be amazing but using the term weird is ridiculous. It’s irreverent. From our earthly experience yes the 4 faced creatures are strange to us but we will understand in heaven and be in awe of God. God does not need to INVADE anything since He is the sovereign God.

          • Okay man youre just elivating your experience over mine. Im telling iv seen it with my eyes iv done it how is me sharing that with you make me self rightious i pray over people because God loves them and i am to be his hands and feet. Take a logic class man the christian faith isnt logical god become a man dieing in our place and raising himself from the dead appearing like a ghost for 50 days then ascending to heaven and sending his holy spirit to dwell in his followers whats logical about that? I dont thinnk im better than you but i do think you shpuld believe in supernatural healing because it blows away any argument against God. Once i went to a skate park and someone i knew who i later found out hated God blew his knee out then my friend and i prayed for it right there and he freaked out and was like “It dosent hurt anymore at all then we sat in a circle for 30 min with like ten people sharing the gospel and they sat on there skateboards and just listened to us. if we had just walked up and started yelling you guys need jesus no one would have listened sometimes God uses it to open doors to peoples heart… thats all i want is for you my brother to see that maybe just here you may be wrong and should ask God to show you….iv seen it man

          • What have you seen with your own eyes? A limb growing back that was missing? A 100% blind guy everyone knew was blind who received his sight? Did you raise someone from the dead? Or wait, you healed a migraine headache, a sore back? You know unverifiable stuff no one can actually even see? Probably. Anyone can fake that or be delusional about it.

            The Christian faith isn’t logical? Really? Are you joking? So you believe in something illogical and that makes no sense? Sorry, but God is logical and the Bible is full of logic. Jesus did not come back as a ghost but a physical body. He even ate fish with the disciples. You need to actually read the Bible.

            Supernatural healing does not occurr today and you cannot prove it either. That is why I ask you to go to a hospital and use your HUUUUUGE faith man and heal everyone dude! Prove it.
            I believe supernatural healing occurred in the New Testament and during the lives of the Apostles, and with God’s providence God can work out a way for healing or preserving someone. But I do not at all believe in faith healing.

            How do you know a kid blew his knee out? Did you get an MRI right then and there? And if there was no pain at all and he was healed why was he sitting for 30 minutes resting his knee instead of standing or skating more? And no one has to yell about Jesus to share the gospel. Its easy to do and I dont need magic powers to do it.

          • Actually my best friend does have xrays to prove soneones foot got healed…….. what does that change? Im am sorry you have been mislead into thinkingChristianity is all head knolege im sorry people taught you that. Also i said “like a ghost” not “as a ghost” because he walked through walls. If god never changes and is forever the same why would he heal people then stop? This is about God hes bigger than your mind…. dude i dont need to argue about it I have experience my eyes have seen it you cannot out smart or out talk my experience, healing, word of knolege tell me how god can tell me things id never know in 100 years and it be dead on? We once ask God for a word and he told us anxiety and chest pain for this 20 year old looking woman weve never seen b4 in our lives and so we ask her and she says “well i have panic attacks until it feels like im having a heart attack” lol dude talk all you want you may be abel to talk yourself out of it and others but not me man its too late i have seen it ……. oh hey give me one verse from the new testament that tells me i cant heal ppl in jesus name…… you cant there isnt one.

          • If you believe the same gifts of the new testament are for today they should be exactly like them if performed today. Your so called gift should perform exactly like they did in the bible. The amount of people healed, the speed of the healing, the witnesses and obvious objective evidence it actually was true, and every disease, every injury, every deformity, every demon possession should all be healed. Everything. AIDS, syphillis, cancer, blindneess, withered hands, limbs should grow up, leprosy, bochelism, and also you should bring people back to life from the dead. All of this should be documented with valid proof such as live on video, in a hospital heal everyone, have 500 people who can verify it happened or more. Prove it! Go to your local hospital with a camera and do it. Everyone would believe in Jesus if you did it probably.

            You said God appeared like a ghost. Nowhere did Christ look, seem like, appear like, or act like a ghost. Walking through walls never happened in the bible. Please show me the verse. He did appear places but he was physical, in a solid body. Its obvious statements like that prove you dont really know the bible but assume things and hear by word of mouth from other people who are wrong.

            God in his nature and being do not change. But to say God never changed or acts differently at certain points is pure ignorance. Was Jesus always on earth? Was there a point God did not heal people? yes. After that Jesus came and healed people. Then apostles. After that there is nothing suggesting anyone else had the power to do it. To say God never changes or acts in other ways makes no sense, since Jesus wasnt always here, Jesus also died and came back and is in a glorified body. Thats change. Things change, but God in His nature, His will and His essence never change. There was a theological lesson for you.

            Chest pain? easily subjective as well as the power of suggestion. Hey I heard your foot is sore, I think God told me you have pain there? Didnt you hurt it in the mosh pit once or skateboarding? Oh wow I JUST showed a prophecy from GOD FOLLOW MY WORDS! lol Anyone can do that and weak minded people always believe it. That is why TV preachers make millions off of people like you.

            Give ou a verse that says you cannot heal peolpe in Jesus’s name? Those exact words? Obviously its not in the Bible. But the concept it. Is the words “The bible and its 66 books the only book we will follow for God” in the bible? no, but the concept is.

            Can you find a verse that says I should personally actually have faith healing powers to heal people? no, you cant. So stop asking stupid questions that prove nothing.

          • God is very clear in the bible about what not to do ….. and last time i checked the same spirit that raised christ jesus from thw dead now lives im my body….. just biblically speaking where in the entire bible did the holy spirit dwell dorment in a temple it used to kill people who wpuld walk in because of its power and holyness now because of christ it lives in me so that alone gives me just the slightest idea that god through my temple can do the supernatural. …. also calling my question dumb and not answering and just asking me the opposite is not a good argument actually its quite silly because you just admitted that there is no where in the bible where God says i cant… if he has all this scripture about people doing supernatural things but didnt want me to try he would of by his sovernty put at least one verse to tell me to not try to look like ppl from the bible but everywhere i see it looks to me he encourages me to try……. if God dosemt want his children to look like him in the earth with power then why did he give us the same spirit? And why dosent he tell us not to? Plain and simple because he does want us to and there is objective proof you just have to look for it. How can we be transformed into the image of his son if we dont posses any of his attributes after all 1 Corinthian 4;20 the kingdom is not a matter of talk but of power

          • I was in the Pentecostal Churches for a while. You want to know what I got out of it? Chaos and confusion. All it was to me was just playing on people’s emotions and getting caught up in the emotion of everything instead of preaching the Gospel like Christ commanded. There was way too much emphasis on spiritual gifts than there was on seeing people saved and growing in there faith. Do healings happen of course but not like it did back than. You have to remember the New Testament hadn’t been written yet. I’m going to say this too since switching back to Independent Fundamental Baptist I have learned more about the bible and grown in my faith so much more than I did in any Pentecostal church. That is a fact I can honestly say.

          • The bible teaches that at one time 70 people went on a trip, a mission, to cities in Israel and had such powers. It also teaches that again later the Apostles were permanently given the same powers and Acts shows this, as well as a few close associates who did some things. But nowhere does it say every Christian should have healing powers exactly like Jesus and its not even true today. None of the miracles they claim are even close to anything in the bible. Its just a joke. Bands like Sleeping Giant promote false faith and weak people.

          • I agree the only healing I’ve ever seen was when a group or church prays for someone and the person is miraculously healed by Gods intervention. I can’t remember the exact chapter and verse but there was an occasion where Paul healed someone and that person tried to offer him money for it and Paul refused it. After that in the book Acts there are no recorded acts of healing like that and I think God transitioned that for that reason so people would know it’s God that heals and not the individual person. I’ve heard several stories of people going to faith healers and the results not being good. The big problem I have with that is them charging money for it. Paul refused it when offered to him. The worst story I heard was this couple brought their diabetic son to a faith healer to be healed and those fools took him off his insulin and he died as a result. They ended up going to jail for that. What really bothers me about that is you know there are warning signs to that and they completely ignored them because they were convinced that the faith healer healed him.

          • Ya and when faith healers claim they healed someone they ignore anything else. So a week later the sickness or injury is still there its obvious the healing was a sham. This is what guys like 3ddie5smith dont want to admit.

          • Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. 1 Corinthians 12 4-11
            So why would the church at corinth posses these gifts but we cant? Also i agree lots of pPentecostal churches do play on emotion and do not focus on christ or growing ppls faith however i am not Pentecostal im non denominational because none of the denominations are mentioned in the bible its incredibly hard to find a balanced church that practices the gifts and has great solid teaching however i after searching for 3 years have only aattended 2. I also heard the story of the kid who died because of that but honestly they were just stupid people so do we throw out the doctrine of hell because westbowro misused it ….. no we file that in the crazy folder we dont abandon sound teaching because some crazy ppl took it to far.

          • None of those gifts that are mentioned in that passage are anything close to the “gifts” you charismatics claim you possess.

            Pentecostalism started your entire movement even if you go to a non-denominational church you are guilty of the same nonsense.

            Your claims are not sound teaching, and Tommy Green does not promote sound teaching. Try again.

          • Acts 5:12 “Many signs and wonders were being done among the people through the hands of the apostles. By common consent they would all meet in Solomon’s Colonnade.”

            Matthew 10:1 “Summoning His 12 disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to drive them out and to heal every disease and sickness”

            2 Corinthians 12:12 “The signs of an apostle were performed with great endurance among you—not only signs but also wonders and miracles.”

            That is what I mean. Only the Apostles had those powers. You sir, do not.

          • Thomas Nelson’s study bible explains this and it makes sense.

            “12:8-10. Gifts of healing: This has in mind gifts whereby the sick were healed (cf. Acts 4:30). The emphasis is on the results, not on the process. The gift does not produce divine “healers” but divine healing (cf. James 5:14, 15). Prophecy is the communication of special revelation from God. It could have been in the sense of foretelling (acts 11:28) or simply forth telling. Most of the New Testament epistles fall into this latter category. This was a temporary gift, no longer need after the canon of the New Testament was completed. Its major counterpart today is preaching. Tongues: The gift of speaking in tongues in the Book of Acts appears to have been limited to speaking in “known (foreign) languages” (cf. Acts 2:4; 10:46; and, 19:6). Paul uses the expression in precisely the same way.” (The Thomas Nelson King James study Bible)

            There was no need for those gifts after the canonization if the New Testament. They were ment for the establishment of the church.

          • Because your questions was dumb and is a fallacious argument. Tons of things are not literally stated in exact words in the bible, but the concepts are taught all over it. No the bible does not say “You personally cannot raise people from the dead.” but it also does not say “You personally cannot stone gay people.” So by your logic you should be able to stone gay people now. See how stupid your question is?

            So go raise people from the dead right now. You have strong faith right? Prove it.

            Attributes? Supernatural power is not attibutes, but spiritual character and holiness by way of sanctification. Not whether or not you speak in tongues or heal some kids foot with powers. Get real.

            Also, nothing you say can be proven or verified its simply just you talking.

    • You might want to read these verses here. So I’ll post them for you.

      Matt 7:21-23 KJV
      21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
      22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
      23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

      • So this guy decided the sick no longer need to be healed after canonization of the scriptures and what scripture is that based off? No where i repeat no where in the bible GOdS LiViNG WROD does it say these things have stopped happening so why does this man claim so as if he has based it upon scripture it is not it is based upon hos experience or else he would of pointed out scripture that clearly suggest his statement is correct instead he just post the fact that it happened followed by his made up conclusion that it was to establish the church…. jesus establoshed the church miracles even jesus him self says you only seek me for miricles amd not for who i am,…. miracles occur in other religions by dark powers why would miricles establish truth and the church they happened because it was a result of a established church in jesus not to establish by this logic Satanism is established by demonic activity but we know that someone needs not to fully worship satan to be possesed or oppressed by demons it is just a truth that they desire to destroy the image beares of God…. so miricles or manifestations do not establish but sjow proof of however jesus needed not to do one miracle to establish him as the holy blameless son of God he didnt need to do one thing to prove himself he could of simply went to the cross and been crushed but miraculous works followed him as a result so his body on the earth reflecting his devine nature will surly produce the same results as his vessels and bride (this is in reguards to your response to 1 cor 12)

      • You new apostolic reformation hardcore music guys have an incredibly hard time backing any of your claims up with scripture. And you have a difficult time actually arguing against the arguments presented in this article. Instead you say “ohh you are a pharisee” and then a buddy says “Nice!” as if you proved something. My article stands and rational Christians will see that Sleeping Giant is a heretical band with deceived followers who blindly follow their false teaching and don’t care about truth.

  10. My favorite part about this article is the “appearance of evil” section. Sure, 2 Corinthians truly states Christians should not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. And I agree that that should not be the case ESPECIALLY in a Christian ministry. However, does Frankie being FEATURED in song mean he is part of Tommy’s minister? Absolutely not. In no way does Frankie have a role in Sleeping Giant or any influence to them as a band. Frankie is a friend of Tommy. This is clearly just two friends meeting up to jam in a song. You are taking it a bit too far with this example. Frankie featured in a Sleeping Giant song is equivalent to an atheist and a Christian handing out food to the poor as a “ministry”. They both may not believe in the same thing, but they have a heart for music. Is it not okay to even be friends with a non-believe? Am I truly not a follower of Christ since I have many friends who don’t believe in God? Can I not be friends with my blood brother since he is not a follower of Christ? I obviously don’t know your answers to these questions, but I’d like to know your take.

    • First off, do not present straw man arguments against me. If you have a real problem with what I believe and am standing up for then attack the actual points made in the article. Nowhere did I say you cannot be friends with, jam with, or hand food out with an atheist.

      Franky may not have a role with Sleeping Giant, but in this video he certainly does. Sleeping Giant presents itself as a Christian ministry, not just an entertainment act. They believe everything they do in their music is spiritual and evangelistic. Allowing Frankie who has bizarre and anti-christian beliefs into a music video of their ministry is being unequally yolked and also promotes a godless man who stands against God. It presents someone with dangerous beliefs and ideas to impressionable kids who should instead be presented better music artists who stand up for truth. Sleeping Gaint is a ministry and they did team up with an unbeliever and this is against scripture.

      This has nothing to do with being friends with, or helping out a homeless person if you happen to be with an atheist friend. But on the other hand if you are claiming you are a Christian ministry for homeless and you partner with atheists then you are being anti-scriptural.

      the lyrics of the song are about Sleeping Giant’s view of “the true church” and then frankie says lyrics about God when he is an unbeliever and this is profane to the cause of Christ. It shows a sheer lack of discernment on Tommy Green’s part to do such a video. A person who is against God in his unbelief is not part of the church and should not be singing lyrics about what is and what is not the true church. It is hypocrisy and detrimental to the cause of Christ.

      The bible says do not be unequally yolked, can you show me a verse that says you can be unequally yolked in certain situations in ministry? Sleeping Giant openly declares they are a ministry.

    • 1 Thessalonians 5:22 “Stay away from every kind of evil.” Other translations say “Avoid the appearance of evil.”

      2 Corinthians 6:14-16 “Do not be mismatched with unbelievers. For what partnership is there between righteousness and lawlessness? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? What agreement does Christ have with Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s sanctuary have with idols? For we are the sanctuary of the living God…”

      2 john 1:9-11 “Anyone who does not remain in Christ’s teaching but goes beyond it, does not have God. The one who remains in that teaching, this one has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your home, and don’t say, “Welcome,” to him; for the one who says, “Welcome,” to him shares in his evil works.”

      Partnering up with an unbeliever in anyway whether it be business or ministry associations; teaming up with them and yoking yourself with them is a sin and against the teaching of Scripture. It profanes what is holy.

      If someone is in direct opposition to the gospel and you are friends and invite him into your home and you welcome him you participate in his evil works.

      How else can you interpret these scriptures? Is there a clause that says “But in the case of music or a band…” no there isnt. It says what it says. Either you accept Scripture or you do not.

      It is obvious Scripture is talking about open heretics who do not care about the gospel and in fact hate it and promote things against it. This is not the same as helping a homeless non believer or being friends with an atheist you have the chance to gospel witness to.

      Frankie is a nut who believes in new age paganism and is most likely demon possessed. Teaming up with him only shows Sleeping Giant’s allegiance is misplaced.

  11. “I believe Tommy Green is not qualified for ministry and is teaching outrageous things that are dangerous and destructive to healthy Christian spirituality and faith…”
    I was going to give this article a chance but I stopped right there. Please show me where Jesus outlined specific qualifications to spead the word?

    • Okay so right before the qualifications of what a true leader or minister of the church are mentioned you stopped reading it. So you let your emotions rule your intellect and put a barrier between your heart and God’s spirit that teaches you from His Word. Read the whole article and you will get your answer.

  12. “I believe Tommy Green is not qualified for ministry…” This was the initial statement that stopped me in my tracks based on my beliefs that are written in the scripture and not because of an emotion I felt. Regardless, I entertained your statement and read the article to find your answer and still did not find my answer. The great commission makes no mention of having to be qualified to spread the word of God that Jesus instructed the first disciples to spread. Anyone can share the love of our savior Jesus Christ.
    Your missing some major points in Tommy’s message.
    First, he says I want share an experience I had with you, one that is important to me.
    He is not instructing them on biblical doctrine. You seem to go off on a tangent about being qualified to “teach” and he clearly says he’s sharing his experiences.
    Tommy’s experience is different, not everyone believes this out of world experience to be true, and personally I don’t know what to think of it. The important point your missing is he isn’t calling the crowd or the people he’s sharing with to accept it as fact but a means to show how Jesus is our only way to heaven. He even says to disregard his supernatural experiences, he is just trying to drive the point home of who is Jesus is and who he should be in our life.

    • You seem to ignore any Scripture I present or the argument I present with the Scripture. Sorry, but Tommy is a teacher, he is teaching things and is a leader of his ministry. He actively is a leader of not only Sleeping Giant but also part of Come&Live. Any rally cry or any speech he gives he is teaching and claiming what he has to say is important spiritual truth. He is a teacher whether you try to play semantics or what. He also behaves in an immature way and even claims he knows nothing and is also a moron. He said it himself. He claimed he is a moron, those are his words not mine. If he truly does not know anything he should not be teaching or claiming to teach a truth on some spiritual matter. The Scripture I used is Colossians 1:28 states the importance of spiritual maturity,

      “We proclaim Him, warning and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone mature in Christ.”

      The way he acts like Wayne’s word on the pulpit is unbecoming of a Christian teacher. He always says “But I dont know maybe im wrong blah blah” yet the bible says in Colossians 4:12 that one of Paul’s converts and workers contended and prayed for the Colossian church to be able to “stand mature and fully assured in everything God wills.” Tommy Green does not give assurance but alot of ambiguity and “I dont know im a moron” type of comments. A real teacher or minister would be confident in what he says because it is absolutely true and fact.

      Another big red flag is he is divorced. 1 Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:6 clearly state that no one should be preaching or teaching the Church unless they are the husband of one wife. Tommy Green is now re-married to a second wife. This disqualifies him for such a teaching/preaching ministry. Divorce is only acceptable if the reason is marriage-unfaithfulness or adultery (read Matthew 19:9, Matthew 5:32, Malachi 2:16, 1 Corinthians 7:1, Luke 16:18, Mark 10:11).

      Do you just want to ignore the Scriptures and act blind?

      Anyone can explain the gospel or stand up for Jesus, but not everyone is qualified to teach or be in ministry that goes around claiming spiritual claims. Lets go to the most absurd form of your idea no one has to be qualified to spread the word of God: Should a child molester be a pastor? Should be lead a missionary effort? I think there are obvious standards for what should qualify for ministry oriented work. The bible lists it in 1 Timothy and one of the qualifications is husband of 1 wife. Jesus said if you divorce your spouse then you are committing adultery if you remarry someone else, and you cause your spouse to commit adultury if you leave them and they marry another person. This is what Christ Himself taught. Paul told Timothy that a qualified leader of church (and Sleeping Giant constantly claims their shows are the church, and Tommy Green claims to baptize kids with water bottled like he is a pastor) should be married to 1 wife. This means not divorced or re-married to another woman. This is common sense when read it.

      I am not missing any points. I am sorry but when you claim to speak about Jesus Christ and teaching what you claim are facts about Christ you are thus teaching doctrine (AKA teachings, concepts, truth claims) about God. Claiming you had a vision and we should all listen to it to learn about God is doctrine. According to the Scripture I listed above Tommy Green’s experience is false and either a lie or a spiritual delusion and could be demonic. That is enough to not want to trust Him.

      Just because he says to disregard experiences does not actually mean he wants you to disregard them. That is false humility. If his experience is not important then why claim it? Just use the bible to talk about Jesus being the only way to heaven through what Scripture teaches. If Tommy himself does not know what to think about it why should we trust it? Are you that gullible? If his vision is false, which it is, then he is not pointing anyone to the true Jesus but a mystical Jesus in his own mind or given through demonic spirits. Because none of what he teaches is in the Bible.
      2 John 1:2 “Anyone who does not remain in the teaching about Christ, but goes beyond it, does not have God.”
      And for your clarification because I know you will try to spin that verse the teaching about Christ is strictly what the Apostles taught about Christ and what is written in the Bible alone. Nothing more and nothing less. Tommy is going beyond the teachings about Christ and making up his own things about Jesus.

  13. Even if what you have said is true. The biggest mistake i see with alot of christians is how quick we are to judge. The Bible makes it clear just look at Luke 6:37.
    So yes i do agree with what you said but at the same time i couldn’t help to notice how focused you are one person.
    So how about instead of slamming a fellow christian with a blog on the internet, face upto him and help him realize the wrong his done.

    • Luke 6:37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;”

      Fair enough, that is true. But on the other hand

      John 7:24 “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

      See the difference? It is okay to judge and God expects us to judge between right and wrong. If you admit you agree with what I stated about sleeping giant you will then understand John 7:24. My article was about one person and a band, so what? I have plenty of articles about various topics. Of course if I call out someone and make it known the promote something unbiblical and even satanic the article will be focused on one person.
      ALso if you really understand my article and agree with it then saying I am slamming a fellow Christian is absurd.

      The fact I wrote the article is enough for him to know he can get help and realize the wrong he is doing and change. He has every ability to read this article and I am sure he has. Enough people have viewed it and most likely let him know about it. If he wants to change he will but its doubtful. Heretics do not care to change more often than not.

  14. Your missing the whole point that reference is not saying the sick will never be healed. Or that God doesn’t heal people. What it’s meaning is that God transitioned it to fervent prayer. I’ve seen people healed from from people praying for them fervently. But it’s not because someone put their hands on them and they were instantly healed. I’m not saying God can’t do it he is God and can do anything, but I believe it’s not done that way anymore because I believe God wants people to put their faith in him and not in a person. I believe that after the canonization of of the New Testament some of those gifts got transitioned. Speaking in Tongues and Prophecy got Transitioned to the simple preaching of the word of God. There was no more need for those gifts after the New Testament was in written for and canonized. The Holy Spirit speaks to us through the reading of Scripture and fervent prayer. At that time there were no copies yet of the New Testament as it was being written. Now if someone says I have prophesy from God for you whatever it says should now line up with scripture. If it doesn’t than that person is a fake. Prophesy now is the the reading of the word of God and applying it to our lives. Speaking in tongues is now the simple preaching of the word of God. I’d rather go to a church with sound biblical teachings than waste my time in a church where there isn’t much teaching from the word of God and a bunch of people being “slain in the spirit” and saying things that cannot be understood and causing a bunch of confusion.

    • Remember that all speaking in tongues in the bible was known human languages that someone understood. The early pentecostal church even taught this way but had to then change in order for their teaching to fit their ecstatic occult experiences. Then they claim it is a “heaven” language. Its not even a real language. The tongues in the bible are simply the old english term for languages. Say tongues = languages. So “the gift of languages” actually means what it says, they had special supernatural abilities to automatically know and understand languages to witness the gospel to other countries and also bible translate. Very soon after Christ went back to heaven this gift had ceased.

      1 Corinthians 13:8 “Love never ends.
      But as for prophecies,
      they will come to an end;
      as for languages, they will cease;
      as for knowledge, it will come to an end.”

    • Okay i got you and i do agree with alot of it especially the lattervpart about good biblical teaching. I also agree God wants us to put our faith in him and not man. I also agree with confusion and abuse of the spirit is wrong. Primarily what im saying is not some preacher on a stage or even on a street, i believe the next great move of God is going to be the average christian the mechanicor store clerk that when we go out we are carriers of the great gospel mmessage to the lost not necessarily to the body tho it is important to constantly preach the gospel to our selves but as we go god has endowed us with his spirit and the authority under christ to perform prophecy and healing to the nonbelievers as a sign to all of the power and presence of our living god not holy roller tent meetings. But in everyday life at chilis or walmart people being touched by his people used as his hands and feet to those far off or backsliden also paul is clear in Corinthians how to use the gifts in accordance with order in the church. That is actually what chapter 13 is about is people abusing and misusing the gifts and how they should structure and operate during a service. However why would paul tell all the Corinthians to desire the gift of prophecy if when the new testament was done they would no longer need it. He says these things will cease when the perfect comes i interpret that to be when Jesus comes because we will no longer need any manifestations of the spirit as all will be revealed fully after his return and judgment. Until that day god still uses regular Christians that are pizza boys like me to bring a encouraging word thatonly God could know as a revelation of his living love to those who reguard the bible as not true….. and all every single one will line up with scripture if it doesnt it is not of God but of the enemy. Again however because people abuse a certin doctorine and misuse scripture doesnt mean that we though it out. People use jesus sacrifice as a license to sin and live how they want and think they can spend forever in heaven but just because the enemy has perverted his grace to the spiritually blind doesnt mean we stop proclaiming God amazing grace for us.

      • “god has endowed us with his spirit and the authority under christ to perform prophecy and healing to the nonbelievers as a sign to all of the power and presence of our living god not holy roller tent meetings. But in everyday life at chilis or walmart people being touched by his people used as his hands and feet to those far off or backsliden also paul is clear in Corinthians how to use the gifts in accordance with order in the church.”

        Chapter and verse in the bible please…where has God given everyone powers to go to the supermarket or a restaurant and heal unbelievers? And where did God tell us to say prophecy to people? So what added prophecies to the bible? If so why not go to the hospital and heal everyone right now? My challenge still stands. Do it or shut up.

        “That is actually what chapter 13 is about is people abusing and misusing the gifts and how they should structure and operate during a service.”

        Glad you recognize that so stop using it as proof that you should heal people and speak in gibberish tongues. All charismatics claim corinthians promotes their ideas when actually Paul was condemning the very practices the charismatics do every day in this age.

        Also you cannot abuse or misuse a gift of God. Sorry, but God does not give super powers to people he knows will misuse them or abuse them. That makes absolutely no sense. This is just a lame excuse by charismatics. Yes God gives miracle powers to abusers who steal money and rip people off, but the other Christian who loves the bible and reads it and never has any healing power, whom you claim has dead faith, is not given powers? Makes no sense.

        Your argument about abusing Jesus’s sacrifice, as if they can actually recieve grace by living in sin, is nonsense. God’s grace transforms people and changes their lives. No one uses it as a liscence to sin because those people do not actually have Gods grace and are liars and under Gods wrath. Satan cannot pervert Gods grace, and just because Satan will come up with lies (much like the lies that you believe you are a faith healing pizza boy) does not mean people would stop proclaiming such a belief.

        Also remember every single thing you stated above is a “doctrine” and a “theological belief” by you. Things you before have rejected as man-made ideas and not living by the spirit. Stop behaving contradictory.

  15. Your right it makes perfect sense. Those gifts were apostle gifts given to them. With the canonization of the New Testament now translated into different languages there really is no need for it anymore. God used it for the apostles to establish the church and to write the New Testament as a foundation for the church to lean on. Now one can read the New Testament and through the power of the Holy Spirit can understand it. It makes perfect sense.

    • It was to confirm that they were from God. The supernatural abilities were signs from God that their teaching, their Scripture was true from God. Now that its been proven and taught all over these gifts disappeared and it was Gods doing.

      • Why would pauls say all should desire to prophecy if it was going to pass in 100 years or so he would have said dont worry about it these things are not of importance but instead he takes 2 chapters to go into detail about how to use them. Romans 4:20 the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power

        • 2 chapters to go into how to use prophecy? I dont think so.

          The fact is there were new testament prophets and apostles alive before the canonization of the entire bible that we have today.

          Matter of talk and power does not mean “Matter of talk and super powers of miracles.” It simply means the power of God and His truth in the gospel that changes lives and saves people from sin. Christians are not the X-men dude…

          • No disrespect but do u even know where the word charismatic comes from? Charis meaning grace or a gift, look it up bro, that’s Greek for u, it’s what the nt was written in. You now who taught me that? My LORD jesus! .last time I checked that’s a very biblical concept. I attended a dry church for years like u one time. But u know what got me out? Jesus said my sheep know my voice. You familiar with that verse? What’s the the last thing He told u bro? Honestly can u hear His voice? jesus said we will do greater works! It’s in the book of John. Do you truly know His voice or do u just know about Him. U got some Word but no Holy Spirit. U need to wake up bro. We are co heirs with Christ, Galatians says that. U think a co heir doesn’t do the same things that The king is doing? Ur wrong bro and u don’t even see it. I’ve seen and prayed and been apart of healings, real healings that last! Don’t knock in something u don’t believe. Ur actin like Saul on the road to demasscus . U need to hear Him tell u to stop kicking against the goads. When u pray actually try to stop talking and let Him speak. U might actually get taught by the real teacher aka the Holy Spirit.

          • I am not sure what your point in telling me the definition of charism is. So you are claiming you did not know the new testmanet was written in Greek until God himself audibly spoke to you and told you? I learned it from my teacher and from reading books and it seemed a bit obvious the original bible was written in other languages. And yes God wanted it to be written in that. If God speaks to you and tells you everything about everything why do you need to even read the bible tio begin with? Wont he just talk to you audibly and lecture you?
            For me I read the Bible to understand what God is saying because that is God’s intention. The Word of God in the books of the Bible to be read and understood by men. God does not need to remind me what the bible says when I can read it myself. Why does God need to repeat himself as if His bible was not good enough? Did God fail with the Scriptures and make them too difficult to learn?

            Claiming a church is dry is an insult and falsejudgment against other Christians who hold to biblical faith. I believe you have an incorrect view of scripture and do not follow its true teachings because you add to the word of God and behave in ecstatic experiences that are not taught in the Bible. You claim you hear God’s voice talking to you. I claim you are wrong and there is no way for you to prove He did anyway. the only objective truth is the Bible and if you do not use that to defend a position and instead appeal to a voice in your head then you are wrong.

            I have the holy Spirit as i am saved by Gods grace. not whether I experience things and speak in tongues or claim I heal people.

            I am not acting even close to how Saul was. I do not want to sentence charismatics to death or go out of my way to drag them into prison. Get real.

            Saying “Don’t knock something u don’t believe” is a ridiculous and hypocrtitical statement by you since you are knocking in what I believe, which is something you do not believe. You are also making a claim that would protray Jesus was being wrong because He constantly knocked on something He did not believe in order to point us toward truth. You are illogical and that is because you ascribe to the charismatic emotional nonsense.

            The Holy Spirit is my teacher through the Word of God. God created the Bible for a reason. We should not ignore it.

          • The reason why I told u the definition is because u coming against charismatic is like u coming against grace cuz that’s the real definition! U missed thr point! U throw it all out cuz some churches put a bad taste in people’s mouths. U dont know the word as good as u think. Show me one scripture where it says that we r not to heal or to operate in the gifts? U just got lame excuses cuz u don’t experience them. U may be saved but bro ur not in line with His heart. Nor understand His word and u lost an ear to His voice. U never answered my question what is the last thing u heard Him tell u! Not tryn to be a jerk but some how show u that u need to be enlightened to the 3rd person of the trinity it’s aka the Holy Spirit. Believers like u is why Christianity in America has become weak. Wake up bro stop drinking from the dead cisterns of the religious dry bone, wasteland books that u got n ur library.God is SPIRIT and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and truth! As far as u saying He doesn’t need to remind u of the scriptures, u can just read them ur self. Wouldn’t u want the teachers aka the Holy Spirit to teach u all things? That’s why He is with us! U think u can units and all without Him? Non believers read the bible all the time and don’t understand it. Why? Cuz they don’t have His Spirit. Jesus told Peter flesh and blood hasn’t revealed this to u but the Father. U got too much pride bro to speak the way u do. U can live ur life without the teacher aka Holy Spirit? Wake up bro go back to the basics

          • First off, the one with pride is obviously you. You are the one shouting me down with logical fallacies. I never once said that I do not believe in the Holy Spirit. Of course the Holy Spirit teaches me, but He teaches me through the Scriptures. That is the only truth that God gives. Not some voice in your head. How can you be sure the voice in your head is God? Only the Bible is objective.

            The bible of course will not have a sentence that says “do not operate with healing.” Obviously! But the only people healing were the Apostles. And the Bible does not teach that faith healers or Jimmy Swaggert types are true. Jimmy Swaggert teaches that all of us are “little gods” and we have power to create. He is a heretic.

            Also grace is undeserved and something you cannot just ask for or take by some action of speaking in tongues. professing a word of faith etc. I have God’s grace and am forgiven of my sins by His power alone not my own will. That is grace.

          • Jimmy swaggart doesn’t teach that, never has. U still don’t have scripture against the gifts. U haven’t answered my question. U just assume that the gifts aren’t for us. That’s not good doctrine. And His voice may be internal cause He dwells there. That’s where He said He would dwell , cause that’s what scripture says. So if u wanna say its in my head thats on u. U still can never answer the question regarding the gifts. Where did u get the doctrine that the gifts are only for the apostles? I guarantee it was from some book u read that wasn’t the bible. U have lil faith bro. How do u think Moses or Abraham walked and had relationship with God? They heard His voice, they didn’t have the bible. U think its possible that God is still the same today? I just don’t get how U say the gifts aren’t for today, there is no proof of that. That’s just ridiculous how u can think that. U still don’t understand the whole charismatic definition how it coincides with the word grace. U need to take the blinders off. U need to read the bible for ur self and stop relying on man for revelation. Any body who wants to know truth and come open minded to GOD can see in His word that the gifts are for today cause it no where says that the Holy Spirit will stop working that way and that jesus said His sheep DONT know His voice. It also says in acts that He will pour out His spirit in the last days. But u prolly don’t believe last days refers to now. I don’t know what else to tell u? U keep goin in circles and can never answer my questions or give proof to back urs up. I have used scripture this whole time all u use is info from some horrible teacher or book u read. That’s how cults start. U may be saved but ur starving ur self spiritually. Ur still on milk bro, milk at best i say, but thats pushing it, u can keep drinking the milk but u can only go so far. Have fun postin dry Jesus to people cause the Jesus in the bible has more to offer.

          • Me and my buddy have healed somebody in a hospital she had lost feeling on the whole left side of her body because of a stroke that put her in the hospital. We prayed for her and she said she felt a warmth over her whole body, she said before we prayed for her someone could’ve put a a lit candle to that side of her face and she wouldn’t feel it but after we prayed The Lord healed her! I don’t understand healing all the time, sometimes people get healed and sometimes they don’t. I think things like this don’t always happen cause there is more unbelief in our nation. Just like jesus said he couldn’t perform miracles in his hometown because of unbelief . Mark 6 I’ve seen healings and was part of them. So how do u explain those away? Wht gain do I have in making this up. Why would I be foolish to lie about this to u? I get no profit from. I’m not try to get u non believers so wake up and be on the frontlines of this war. U can’t use the times of there not being a healing to justify the absolute “doctrine” that He doesn’t heal at all! Cuz that’s a bunch of crap! And in all reality ur speaking what demons want us to believe, That miracles don’t happen. They don’t wants us to walk in faith but doubt. I’m not not writing this in anger but in sincerety

          • Hey after reading some of ur posts I can see ur not as hard headed and terribly mistaken like this white dragon dude. But do u not believe in the gifts at all? I’ve seen them used correctly in biblical examples and that they are completely effective. I’ve been out evangelizing an my wife has gotten words of knowledge of the people we were ministering to that was impossible for us to just make up. And I’ve had it happen to me before. Why do people put off that the gifts are not for today? There is no scripture that teaches that. If anything it says He will pour out His spirit. I checked the article u told me to .and its not bad. I agree with some of it. I feel mainly in America people believe like this I’ve been to third world country where they can attest to healing and gifts just like the bible says. Are they full of crap too? I highly doubt it. Why do people knock what they haven’t experienced? That’s ignorant and really foolish.

          • I can tell you are very emotional about this issue. I did answer your questions and Jimmy Swaggert DOES teach word of faith doctrine which is exactly as I explained. Please research it.

            And most of what you say are simply straw man arguments and other nonsense.

          • I just went to a Donnie swaggart 3 day meeting. He preached straight anointed gospel. They preach against word of faith. Do u even listen to them? I’m sure u dont cuz u wouldn’t say that about them. U know another thing Is I brought people there and they said they felt the presence of God there in a way that they haven’t before in other churches. There was a message of tongues and interpretation. u Know what the message was? that God loves u and that he is coming back soon. does that sound like it too charismatic? heck no it doesnt. it sonds on point. but thats what u get when ur in a body of people who worship God in Spirit and truth. The churches they have been to are prolly like ones u go to, dry! No passion for God! No excitement! God forbid if we get emotional! We serve an emotional God. Jesus showed many emotions in the gospels. There is no point in talkin to u, cuz ur stiff necked, religious, dry, and have still yet to give me scripture to back ur demonized doctrine against the Holy Spirit and the gifts He desires to give out. Ur info of sleeping giant and jimmy swaggart are wrong cuz i actually listen to them. And know some of them. Don’t reply back unless u got something biblically intelligent to say. Are ur crap is here say and from some dry preacher and no real experience. I have seen and been used by God to Heal people. And seen the gifts used to save, and reach the lost to save people. Exactly how they did in scripture! So like I said dont waste my time with r replies of empty philosophy cuz u still haven’t given me scripture and what can u say about my biblical experiences? Cuz they certainly line up with scripture. You would never read of a man of a god preaching wht u r in scripture. They don’t exist in the bible. So y are actin like a false prophet in scripture? Enough said dry man

  16. Did you even read that link I sent you at all? I never said I don’t believe in healing I just don’t believe in Faith Healers. I don’t believe Benny Hinn or Jimmy Sawggart are for real at all in fact they are crooks. They take people’s money and live in these huge mansions. If they were for real they wouldn’t be doing that. I believe in healing but I believe the laying on of hands and the person being instantly healed was reserved for the Apostles. And to call me an unbeliever? You have some nerve calling me that. I was saved at 12 years old at church camp. I know who my savior is and where I stand. I was in the Assembles of God for a while and you want to know what I got out of it? Chaos and confusion. There’s several doctrines I have problems with in the charismatics, faith healing is one of them and I just explained it. The other to is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which there is no scripture that says there’s a separate baptism of the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues. Also speaking in tongues simply means languages. I’m just going to tell you this now, I agree with the Baptists on that. To say that we are spiritually weak and starving is not accurate. I’ve learned more about the bible and have grown in my faith much more there than in any Pentecostal Church. If you read that link I sent you it explains it the best. Also if Baptists are weak because we don’t believe that than why are there a lot of people saved and growing in faith in our churches? Don’t judge something if you’ve never investigated it or looked into it. Also keep in mind too Pentecostals have only been around for 100 years or so. Baptists and there doctrine go back 100s of years before even the Protestant Reformation. God have us wisdom and intellect for a reason and free will to think freely.

    • I wasnt saying ur a non believer as far as not saved. I meant non believer in regarding the gifts. I apologize for that. I don’t claim to be a Pentecostal cuz I think the whole denomination thing is retarded and non biblical just like Paul said in 1 cor. 1:12-13 about some of the believers saying they were of” Apolos or Cephas or Paul… Is Christ divided..” Any ways um I’m not saying that u guys aren’t growing but not push the gifts away cuz of the mis representation of them. I’ve been in churches like that too. But that doesn’t mean it was the Holy Spirits fault.

      • Uhh yes you are actually saying we are not Christians. You even said I promote the doctrine of demons and I am dry and not full of the holy spirit. Therefore you are condemning me to hell. you should just admit it and stop pretending you dont think that about me.

        You are a know it all and seem to already know everything about my beliefs as well. Why havnt you responded to the actual article, looked at scripture used in the actual article and then comment on that?

    • Its wonderful to know you have been saved out of that doctrine. Unfortunately more stay in it or refuse biblical truth. People like pgwayw ho are extremely arrogant, angry, and delusional. He basically does not want me to reply to him. he has stopped his ears and is a know it all who wont take time to listen to me or respond to the ARTICLE ITSELF he is commenting on. He asks for scripture yet its in the article.

  17. Here’s my challenge read what I sent you. I have researched both and I have prayed about it and I agree there is healing but not in the same way your thinking of. I’ve prayed for people and they were healed before but I take no credit for it it was God that healed. It wasn’t that I put my hand on them and they were healed I prayed for that person and in a week they were healed.
    Now I’m not a denominationalist but I believe the Baptists are the best at teaching and preaching the word of God. That’s after being in other churches as well. Also you look at church history Baptists are the oldest Evangelical church that’s still in existence. Known before as the Anabaptists and before that the Waldensians they pre date Martin Luther and the Protestants by hundreds of years. So obviously something’s worked for them to survive all those years from persecutions from both Catholics and Protestants. To say our churches are dry is also not accurate. I’ve been to revival meetings and seen people saved and felt the presence of God without all that Charismatic mumbo jumbo.

    • For the charismatics their idea of presence of God is openly experiencing feelings and seeing things. It has nothing to do with simply belief and faith. They demand God perform circus acts.It is interesting that Swaggert is agianst word of faith. I guess he is more of a classic pentecostal. but he is always asking for money and he was caught in sin yet he still thinks he can be a preacher and he teaches heresy and not the true gospel. He denies the trinity and denies the eternal sonship of God.

      • Ill admit I’m angry. U can believe that. You know why cuz ur article is nothing but lies about people and their ministry and u don’t even know them! Go to jsm.org right now and u will see what u posted about them is wrong, about how they don’t believe in the trinity or the diety of Christis on their website. And as far as sleeping giant I have attended their home church in redlands and the crap u say bout them is not right. I’m angry cuz u spread lies about these people and ur wrong. Ur damn right I’m angry cuz ur makin crap up. And u know maybe I could’ve gone about this differently. But Im irritated by u and think ur wrong in so many ways. Where did u get that info about swaggart? Seriously where? I’ve been listening to him for years. I’ve heard them speak out against word of faith, against tod Bentley, creflo dollar etc. So where the heck u get ur info? Cuz ur spreading lies.
        How would u like if I posted a huge artlicle that was completely contrary to ur beliefs? Cuz that exactly wht ur doin. I believed ur saved but not spirit filled. No spirit filled person would disqualify the gifts. Read 1 Corinthians! . U may have the Holy Spirit but u haven’t been baptized in the Holy Spirit. And if u r one of those who believes its one in the same then u gotta re5 read acts cuz that’s a cop out. U live in so cal? Cuz if u do maybe u need to go tithemi church in redlands ca and ask them if u what u post about them is true u feel find ur beloved sleeping giant members there. And the videos u post of them as evidence is ridiculous. And mis understood. Of course they believe in doctrine but what they r trying to gt people to understand is that it’s about relationship with Him! We aren’t robots with a data base of doctrine. There is intimacy and emotions with our savior. Why do u think we are reffered to as His bride. Show a strong marriage where there isn’t emotionless and feelings involved. Come on man! Think about it.

        • Sorry but I think the videos I posted and other facts about them are sufficient evidence to prove my point. If someone claims “We dont believe in doctrine” then Iw ill take them for their word and what they are teaching is dangerous.

          Also Jimmy Swaggert had 2 cases of being caught with a prostitute. he often had sex with prostitutes and claims he can still preach God’s word. The bible says otherwise.
          Yes Swaggert talks against Word Of Faith etc, but he is not much different,. Just in talk. He is prosperity and was always making money from his large mega church. He was a typical TV preacher. He also does deny the trinity (even if he claims he does not) in the fact he denies the ETERNAL SONSHIP of JESUS CHRIST. He Believes Jesus was created as son when he was born on earth and not before eternally. That is heresy. See why doctrine is important? no I dont live in SoCal anymore. I only wen there while I was at Biola.

  18. Hey I hopefully gonna post something or the last time here. Never even heard of u or this word press thing till I saw some of the words on a google search which brought me here. I literally made an account just respondto ur article.I apologize for being a jerk. I don’t apologize for the content of what I said. I apologize for the way I acted toward u as a brother. I still don’t agree with u nor the sources u got ur info about swaggart and think u don’t really know sleeping giants heart cuz I know 2 of the guys in the band. Or used to be cuz now one is a pastor and the other is ministry too. Both really nice guys and love jesus and love people. Whether u believe they are saved or not I actually know them so I think I can attest to that a lil better. I hope all goes well with u and one day as much as I was pissed at u, I will be with u in heaven forever 🙂 . Ill be prayn for u , and I mean that in sincerely and not in some vindictive way but with a brotherly love, sorry bro for the way I came at u but like i said I don’t agree with some of ur beliefs and I’m sure u feel the same . Have a good night bro I live in the Palm Springs area in California if u r ever In the area . Talk to u Later!

    • okay. Thanks for being nice now, I guess…

      How is it you can say “I do not believe in what you believe” and then criticize me and condemn my beliefs when earlier you made the claim that I have no right to criticize what I dont believe. Makes no sense

      Also how is it I am saved and going to heaven and not spirit filled? How can someone be a Christian and not be spirit filled? Where in the bible is this teaching?

      Just because you know members of sleeping giant does not give them credibility. Facts are facts and what they promote at their shows, on the internet and more is false teachings. I have given sufficient evidence in this article and if you can refute it by all means try. Make your case against my arguments and the scripture I used.

      I am glad to know google search is pointing people to my blog so people can hear some truth and at least be exposed to the idea of steering clear of the new apostolic reformation teachings of sleeping giant.

      • There is a separate baptism it’s all through out the book of acts. Acts 8, 10,11, 18 and 19. It’s really clear. And these are believers after the resurrection so u can’t use anything to refuse that cuz we are post resurrection too. And u can’t disqualify jimmy swaggart cuz he committed adultery cuz so did David, Abraham, Moses murdered someone, Jacob deceived his brother majority of the people in Hebrews 11 were just as bad if not worse. So if u say that bout jimmy swaggart u might as well not read most ur bible cuz it’s full of godly men who did terrible things. And ur scriptures still do no prove the gifts r not for today. Forget sleeping giant and swaggart arguments. None of ur points nor Brandon’s articles and links have any value . And it’s sad that ur article is on google that high up cuz ur slaying them for false doctrine when ur just the same ,give me one verse that qualifies the gifts are not available for today. That’s heresy . U both are adding to the bible. I read ur verses and links none of them , I mean ZERO scripture for u guys both to stand on that there are no gifts for today. All those chapters in acts talk about another baptism, or point out a difference between the 2 baptisms. And they are addressed to believers.

        • Ya a separate water baptism. NOt salvation experience plus another experience. Holy spirit baptism occurs exactly at convesion. Water baptism happened at another time and it is a physical ritual not a supernatural one. Nothing in those verses claim there is a 2nd baptism of the holy spirit after the holy spirit already enters in someone who is saved.

          yes I can disqualify jimmy swaggert as well as Tommy Green since they are not “husbands to one wife” as it says in 1 timothy 3:1-7

          “The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer[a] must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,[b] sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.”

          That disqualified Jimmy Swaggert as well as Tommy Green.

          David and Moses and anyone else in the Old Testament were not priests or religious leaders among the Jews. They were political. Even the Old Testament says only the priests can touch the ark, go into the tabernacle or else anyone will die. So yes that disqualifies David who was not allowed into the holy of holies and Moses and anyone else. Moses did not do priestly rites.

          • Should’ve know u guys will not see that clearly u gotta have some way of denying the gifts. So if u deny the promise of the Father. John said Jeus will baptize us with fire. There is a difference between the Holy Spirit being upon and in. But u prolly don’t see that, well if u guys decide u want gifts from God like it says in 1 Corinthians He is waiting. And ur disqualifying of tommy cuz he is divorced is ridiculous u don’t even know his reasons of divorce. Maybe it’s cuz she cheated on him, maybe it was a marriage before he was saved. Just maybe though but u must know him so…. And jimmy still has one wife. Oh but he sinned so that disqualifies him. I guess ur disqualified too but the scripture doesn’t says that if u sin ur disqualified. Do u know that God is merciful and gracious? Bro if David was king over us today and God chose him to be king u would prolly say He isn’t qualified to be a king. Allot of mighty men of God in the OT are not qualified. But God still used them. So I guess they are qualified in His eyes. I hope u never become a pastor with that mindset cuz u wouldn’t have much of a church. Only pews filled with holy than thou people who would rather kick people who mess up out of ministry instead of come alongside like it says in Galatians. Those scripture u used is directed to someone who practice a life style contrary to that not stumble in sin in one of these areas.

          • And have a church opposed to what? High and mighty super christians like yourself who think they are on a higher spiritual plane becuase you have ecstatic experiences? Which is better, one Christian who believes God and lives a holy life and reads the bible and does not speak in tongues or experience faith healings etc….or a person full of those miracle supernatural gifts you claim who lives immoral and stumbles in sin and justifies it by stating “Well david sinned!”? Which is better and which is better to fill your church with?

            You are ignoring the fact I mentioned david and the others were political leaders, not religious leaders. The priests were religious leaders and likewise todays pastors and deacons are.

            You claim those verses in 1 timothy do not speak about what disqualifies someone. Actually they do. It lists the qualifications for ministry that one must have to lead spiritually the church. If one does not have those then, yes, he is disqualified. Tommy Green has plenty of avenues to explain why he got a divorce and if it was because she cheated on him, or if it was before he was a christian but he hasn’t (but if he has send me a link). To me it sounds like he just gave up on the marriage as well as his wife giving up and they sinfully divorced. Jesus Christ even taught that divorce is a sin and it causes the partner you divorce to commit adultery. The only plausible reason for divorce is due to unfaithulness or immorality. Nothing else.

            And Jimmy Swaggert is a pervert and sex addict. he is no one I respect and he is also a heretic. The fact you are ignoring this speaks volumes about your spiritual state.

            The baptism in fire is not something a Christian will get,. Baptism in fire is the judgment and wrath of God on the reprobate who will thus burn in hell. This is so obvious if you just read the passage!!!! Asking for Gods fire is asking for God to judge you.

            There is no teaching in the Bible about 2 spiritual baptisms. Only one water baptism and another baptism of the holy spirit entering you AT CONVERSION not after conversion. All Christians have the holy spirit.

          • ““I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

            Yeah I dont think I want to be baptized in fire after reading that.

  19. Look man you asked us for scripture to back up what we believe in. There is a lot of it used in the link I sent to you earlier. The reason why I sent it that way was because there’s a lot of verses that support this. But if your not going to take the time to read through than it wouldn’t matter if I posted the verses myself or not, you’ve made up your mind that your not going to listen. So with that said there’s no point in continuing this.
    Now to say I’m not as closed minded as white dragon isn’t totally accurate either. I support this doctrine 100% and it’s not going to change. Just because I say things different than the way he does, doesn’t mean I’m more open minded to this. Remember I said this before I used to be a Charismatic before I thought the more emotional I got and things like that the better, until God convicted me and I saw the truth. The preaching of his word, and salvation is more important than anything else. I learned do much more and spiritually grew a lot when I started going to a church that taught the Word of God. I used to believe the way you do. I used to believe that non Pentecostal churches were dry and weak. Until I went to an Independent Baptist Church and actually heard the preaching of Gods word and the Holy Spirit really struck me. So to say just because we don’t believe in faith healers, speaking in tongues, or a separate Baptism of the Holy Spirit, that were weak and dry is not accurate. I’ve seen dry churches across the board. I’ve seen dry Charismatic Churches where they just concentrate on being slain in the spirit and really cram it on you if your not speaking in tongues. There’s even Baptist churches that are dry too. Some Baptists instead of teaching the word of God, they teach legalism instead and I’ll as admit that’s just as destructive as Charismatic teaching. I pray that you take the time to listen and read what were trying to say, and if you still don’t accept that’s fine, that’s between you and God and gave you the spirit of free will to believe in what you believe in.

    • Right on.

      Also we are not promoting strict denominationalism. As in only one denomination is correct. There are true Christians across denominations. Denominations are important because they express convictions and truth claims and promote the idea of knowing what is true and claiming a belief and confirming it. I dont believe in everything presbyterians believe but I know many of them are true Christians. My sister is a baptist but she goes to a PCA church simply because their beliefs in the doctrines of grace, but not about covenant theology. There are important theoligical beliefs one must have but also secondary issues. If someone is charismatic okay, but if they go as far as the NAR people and word of faith they are believing heresy. And even a secondary issue that is wrong immensely hurts the church overall. This is why proper bible study is important to understand correct doctrines and reject the false ones.

    • Looked at the article bro , no scrip that disqualifies the gifts, none! And there is a 2nd baptism it’s all through acts. Apostles would go to believers specifically to them about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. So how can u not see that it’s a different event in a believers life. Idk if its gonna tongues , that’s a different argument but there is a separate encounter. U guys are wrong for saying there are no more gifts. U guys can’t cut down swaggart and tom green for false teachings cuz u and white dragon are doin the same thing by cuttin the Holy Spirit down like that.

  20. So what if I got it off the Internet. What’s the difference between getting it off the Internet or the library? Or if I handed you the original article? Believe what you want to believe in it’s called free will. There were verses in that article that support this, the fact that you refuse to accept is between you and God. I was right it didn’t matter what verses were quoted there. You’ve made up your mind that were wrong and nothing we say will change your mind. If that’s the case I’m wasting my time. I’m not gonna change you your not gonna change me.

  21. The verses your referring to is they were Baptized by water and not of the Holy Spirit. What is being implied is those people being referred to were baptized by John the Baptist before Christ the Messiah. They hadn’t received salvation yet because they hadn’t heard the Gospel of Christ yet. A person receives the Holy Spirit at Salvation. There is no separate baptism of the Holy Spirit. I’m very familiar with those verses your referring to in fact they prove my point correct a person receives the Holy Spirit at Salvation when they receive Christ as their personal savior.

  22. You sound like your angry. Why? Just because we don’t agree with you? Your saying that I’m gonna be baptized by fire? Come on man I don’t remember Christ and the apostles talking this way to people. If your upset at what we say, here’s a solution for you. Ignore it and move on. Your just torturing yourself by arguing with us. I made my decision a while ago, I’m not angry with you for what you believe in. Also here’s some facts for you about Jimmy Swaggert. This guy was not only caught once but twice with a prostitute. Someone like that has no business being in a Church leadership position. So since he was caught twice think about how many times he’s done it and not gotten caught. I’d say that’s a lifestyle of sin. Because you know as well as I those were not the only 2 times he did it. Also him and most other TV evangelists are just a bunch of crooks. They take all that money given to them and they live in 6 bedroom mansions. They are not in it for ministry they are all about money. It’s not a ministry it’s a business. They are not in it for saving souls for Christ they are in it for the money. Because if they were in it for the purpose of saving people they wouldn’t be living the way they do. Paul had not one material possession yet he shared the Gospel. I myself will not give my money to people like that and I will not support it. I give my tithes and offerings to the local church and that’s it. I put my faith in God and let him do the rest. You keep talking about spiritual gifts. There other gifts as well. There’s wisdom, there’s discernment, those are just as important as the other gifts.

  23. YOU PEOPLE HAVE NO RIGHT TO BASH THIS BAND YOU ALL SHOULD BE CARRYING ON WITH THE LOVE OF GOD WORSHIP IS NOT CONFINED TO K LOVE RADIO READ THE SEVEN DEFINITIONS OF PRAISE IN HEBREW!PLEASE WE GOD DOES NOT WANT TO BE A CONCEPT LIKE THE BAND MEMBER ERIC SAID HE WANTS TO BE ABSOLUTELY REAL TO US! HE WANTS US TO EXPERIENCE HIS HOLY SPIRIT WE WERE ABSOLUTELY MEANT TO HAVE UN NATURAL ENCOUNTERS BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT A NORMALITY OF THIS WORLD HE IS NOT OF THIS WORLD JESUS IS THE SAME YESTERDAY TODAY AND FOREVER THE MOVE OF GOD IS RELEVANT HE STILL RAISED PEOPLE FROM THE DEAD AND GIVES MIRACLES AND WONDERS AND VISIONS AND MAKES MEN PROPHETS AND WOMEN PROPHETESS’S AND THIS IS IN RESPONSE THE ONE WHO POSTED THAT WE SHOULD NOT WAIT ON THE LORD OR FOR HIS WORD THIS IS OUT OF THE BIBLE
    PSALM 27:14 New Living Translation
    Wait patiently for the LORD. Be brave and courageous. Yes, wait patiently for the LORD!
    HERES SOME VERSED ON PROPHESY AND VISIONS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT Acts 2:16-21 ESV / 26 helpful votes

    But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day. STOP ATTACKING PROPHECY AND VISIONS GIVEN TO MEN AND WOMEN BY THE HOLY SPIRIT UNLESS THEY ARE FALSE PROPHETS AND SAY THAT JESUS DID NOT COME IN THE FLESH OR THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD! THE ONES WHO SAY THOSE THINGS ARE FALSE PROPHETS SPEAKING MAN MADE DOCTRINES! HERE IS SCRIPTURE ON HOW TO IDENTIFY FALSE PROPHETS
    1 John 4 King James Version (KJV)

    4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

    3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

    5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

    6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

    7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

    8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

    9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

    11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

    12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

    13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

    14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

    15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

    16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

    17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

    18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

    19 We love him, because he first loved us.

    20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

    21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

  24. Knowledge puffs up. You sir are a pharisee, should we not judge a man’s character and his walk by his fruit? Tommy Green and the guys from Sleeping Giant have an incredible ministry. The drummer Matthew Weir is my brother, and trust me. He is a solid man of God that loves his wife and kid. You judge a man because he interrupts scripture a bit different than you, and has a different sort of ministry. What kind of love are you showing to your brother calling them out for all of the internet to see. You sir are a coward, you use the internet as a platform. Who appointed you as judge, Jesus left us the helper, which is the holy spirit. He commanded us to go out and heal the sick and the blind. Tommy believes in that, he uses that very gift that was given to us!

    John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”

    1 Corinthians 8:1 “Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up.”

    If you knew these men personally, you would know that they are very wise men of God who love the Lord tremendously. They have such a heart for the lost and who are you to talk about them leading a secular personal life. You know nothing, and you are throwing out accusations about people that are doing God’s work. The Bible contained a lot of people like you too, who didn’t believe in the healing that Jesus’ performed and said that he was possessed by demons. They were called pharisees. You should be ashamed. I find it hard to believe that your life is so on track and your walk is so close to the Lord that you have nothing better to do then write this long article hating and bashing on men of God. It’s people like you that scare non believers away, because you aren’t loving them like Christ commanded us to do!

    John 13:34-35 New International Version (NIV)

    34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

    It clearly says here that by our love and through our actions (relationships etc) they will know we are His disciples. That is the VERY thing that Sleeping Giant does, they love the lost and the lost find Him because of the way that they love on them. You have nothing to base your article on other than speculation, check yourself before you judge and bash these guys.

    Matthew 7:5 “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”

    This “new christianity movement” or whatever you want to call it is nothing new at all. Its about time people actually started using the gifts that Jesus left the Holy spirit to empower us with. Stop picking what you like and what you don’t like out of the Bible. You don’t have to get a degree from a biblical college to perform miracles and hear God’s voice. You don’t have to get a degree to heal the sick and the blind.

    Matthew 10:8 “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay.”

    1 Corinthians 12 English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)

    “Spiritual Gifts
    12 Now concerning[a] spiritual gifts,[b] brothers,[c] I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.

    4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

    One Body with Many Members
    12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves[d] or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

    14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body”, that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body”, that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts,[e] yet one body.

    21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”, nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honourable we bestow the greater honour, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honour to the part that lacked it, 25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honoured, all rejoice together.

    27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

    And I will show you a still more excellent way.”

    I love you in Christ brother but you are wrong to call out men of God who are bringing the Lost into His presence. They are kingdom minded.. are you?

    • “Knowledge puffs up. You sir are a pharisee, should we not judge a man’s character and his walk by his fruit?”

      Well isn’t that exactly what you are trying to do to me? Don’t be such a hypocrite. Of course I am judging him by his fruit, all of his fruit has been spilled all over youtube with his false teachings.

      “Tommy Green and the guys from Sleeping Giant have an incredible ministry. The drummer Matthew Weir is my brother, and trust me. He is a solid man of God that loves his wife and kid. You judge a man because he interrupts scripture a bit different than you, and has a different sort of ministry.”

      ok so he is your literal brother and you are related. So what? And he interprets scripture not ” a little different” but a lot different and has a different sort of ministry so much so, that he is promoting false teachings. It needs to be corrected.

      ” What kind of love are you showing to your brother calling them out for all of the internet to see. You sir are a coward, you use the internet as a platform.”

      Uhhh Sleeping Giant uses the internet as a platform and uses it for marketing. They also promote their teachings through this platform. So a platform claimd eserves a platform response and refutation and condemnation. This does not at all make me a coward. It just makes you frustrated because you have nothing better to respond with but insults and logical fallacies. It shows that you have an illogical and false way of thinking about God.

      ” Who appointed you as judge, Jesus left us the helper, which is the holy spirit. He commanded us to go out and heal the sick and the blind. Tommy believes in that, he uses that very gift that was given to us!”

      John 7:24 appoints me as a judge. 1 john 4:1, Philippinas 1:9-10 etc also appoint me to judge. God did command the apostles to go out and heal the sick but not every day christians and no evidence in the bible supports your idea that every Christian had super powers and was healing the sick and that every Christian should be doing that today and actually have such powers. The Holy Spirit is igven to every single true believer who repents of their sin and puits their faith and trust in Jesus for forgiveness of sins. We can know the truth of the bible as the holy spirit helps us.

      “John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.””

      Nothing in that verse says we all have super powers. It says the Holy Spirit teaches all Christians and gives them remembrance of the scripture. Not powers. Stop using verses out of context.

      “1 Corinthians 8:1 “Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up.””

      By what knowledge do you claim such things? I guess you are puffed up. According to you we should all be blithering idiots mumbling and screaming and rolling on the floor and putting hands on people and shoving them over and creating a circus environment at hardcore shows. becuase we all know that is true Christianity and the true church right? God has now chosen a new people, a chosen race of hardcore kids around ages 13-27 and a few 30 somethings who never grew up to be the new chosen children of God, while all those suit wearing pastors and old people drinking old church coffee at “sunday school” some who went to bible school are all puffed up pharisees right? Whatever man. I love how you take verses out of context. Knowledge puffs up so dont go to school dude! Stay stupid! Learn nothing!
      Obviously that verse was talking about people who use the fact they have knowldedge (obviously theological knowledge) and are not basing their attitude of that knowledge on love and many might hurt others by wrongfully judging the fact they would assume they ate meat offered to idols. When they actually were not sinning, but to protect their conscience they do not do it.

      “If you knew these men personally, you would know that they are very wise men of God who love the Lord tremendously. They have such a heart for the lost and who are you to talk about them leading a secular personal life.”

      I dont have to know someone personally to know they are wrong and false teachers. I dont have to know osama bin laden personally to know he was evil and believed in nonsense. I dont have to know alot of people to know they are wrong or even evil. All of the evidence I used was their own words they posted on line. They condmen themselves. All I do is acknowledge their claims and refute them.

      ” You know nothing,”
      Well then that must be good according to know since knowledge puffs up. I wouldnt want to be a pharisee right? I am sure you have all this knowldege and know so much right? Oh wait wouldnt that also make you a pharisee?

      ” and you are throwing out accusations about people that are doing God’s work. The Bible contained a lot of people like you too, who didn’t believe in the healing that Jesus’ performed and said that he was possessed by demons.”

      Uh huh, but i do believe in the healings Jesus performed and I do not believe he was possessed by demons. but the healing claims of Sleeping Giant members I do not believe.

      ” They were called pharisees. You should be ashamed. I find it hard to believe that your life is so on track and your walk is so close to the Lord that you have nothing better to do then write this long article hating and bashing on men of God. It’s people like you that scare non believers away, because you aren’t loving them like Christ commanded us to do!”

      Its people like you who give non-believers reasons to mock God. Your silly beliefs and nonsense behavior is what gives atheists reasons to mock. I never said im perfect and if you read my blog it is obvious I never claim that. Stop making up baseless accusations and start actually reading the real arguments I use against your boys. Then try to use your brain to refute it and stop using baseless insults. It does not make you smart.

      “John 13:34-35 New International Version (NIV)

      34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.””

      And you certainly are not loving me.

      “It clearly says here that by our love and through our actions (relationships etc) they will know we are His disciples. That is the VERY thing that Sleeping Giant does, they love the lost and the lost find Him because of the way that they love on them. You have nothing to base your article on other than speculation, check yourself before you judge and bash these guys.”

      Oh I think I have a lot more than speculation.

      “Matthew 7:5 “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.””

      follow this advice yourself buddy.

      T”his “new christianity movement” or whatever you want to call it is nothing new at all. Its about time people actually started using the gifts that Jesus left the Holy spirit to empower us with. Stop picking what you like and what you don’t like out of the Bible. You don’t have to get a degree from a biblical college to perform miracles and hear God’s voice. You don’t have to get a degree to heal the sick and the blind.”

      but thats what you do. Pick and choose what you want out of the bible and even twist scripture to fit your agenda.

      “I love you in Christ brother but you are wrong to call out men of God who are bringing the Lost into His presence. They are kingdom minded.. are you?”

      uhh no you dont. You called me a pharisee, coward, hater, and said I know nothing. liar.

  25. Mr Weir, you left out this verse on your little rampage

    1 Timothy 3:1-13 KJV

    1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    So according to this when someone is divorced they are no longer qualified for ministry. Are they forgiven by God? Absolutely. But just because someone’s forgiven by God doesn’t mean they are exactly qualified for ministry. I think the reason why God put this in scripture is because he knows that would be a bad example to the world. I myself am going through a divorce and mine is permitted biblically because she is an unsaved person who has left because of my own faith. I was in a back slidden state when I married her. Later I repented and got right with God. I don’t feel I can be qualified for ministry in a church a Christian Band or anything. Why? Because I don’t want other people thinking it’s ok to go do that. Christ was very plain on divorce. I feel it would send the wrong message to others if I went and did that.
    Another thing I left the Pentecostals a while ago. Let me tell you what happened when I left. I saw just how mean spirited they can be to anyone who disagrees with them or doesn’t believe the same way they do. I had several friends and family who either made fun or scorned me because I renounced the charismatic doctrine and accepted the Baptist Doctrine. What charismatics have twisted is this, just because Baptists don’t believe in faith healers like Benny Hinn or Jimmy Swaggert doesn’t mean we don’t believe God heals today. We believe in fervent prayer from Godly people brings healing. So we believe in faith healing just not in the way you do. No I do not support people like Jimmy Swaggart who was caught not just once but twice with a prostitute. I’m pretty sure too those weren’t the only times he did it. I’m sure he did it a lot more times and just never got caught.

    Also whoever said we have no right to say the things we are saying in case you missed Government class the 1st Amendment of the Constitution gives us that right. Second it is scriptural to call out false doctrine and false teaching. I’m sorry but saying there is another baptism of the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues is a false teaching and I’m not afrade to say it. I grew up in the Pentecostal Church I’m well aware of the scripture that is used for such doctrines. I went and read the bible for myself, when I stepped out of that kind of church I saw for myself just how in error they really are. Yes I was saved there, but as far as spiritual growth and wisdom wasn’t much of that at all. When I changed over to Independent Fundamental Baptist I started learning all kinds of things. I realized I had the Holy Spirit living in me all along. Baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at salvation there is no separate baptism evidenced by speaking in tongues. Another doctrine I accepted is salvation is eternal you cannot lose it. People try to say with that kind of doctrine than people will just live that way they want, that’s not the case in fact that’s quite opposite. Saying one can lose their salvation is a total contradiction to Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 in reference to being saved by faith and not works of rightousness. I’m sure you all have read my posts from earlier I’m sure I make myself quite clear on what I believe and why I believe it.

  26. Also, Tommy’s wife cheated on him and Tommy explains this at almost every show. She cheated on him with his best friend, minimal research on youtube would have told you that.

    And Brandon, God can use anyone. What about Paul?

  27. I have never been apart of a Pentecostal church for the record. I actually attend The Village Church. I also don’t identify with man made things like denominations, I believe in a sovereign God and believe that Jesus’ blood has paid my debt. Also my comment was mainly to the author of this article.

    • Oh I will respond later. Right now ive been on a long trip and dont have time to waste refuting you. But I will later. And denomination or not, you believe many of the same things pentecostals believe because they are the originators of most of your so called “non-doctrines” (which are really doctrines even if you deny you believe in doctrines) and are false.

  28. One more thing… I agree that the bible commands us to confront fellow believers but there are very specific instructions. This article is not biblical..

    Matthew 18:15-17 ESV

    “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

    You don’t go tell the world, you lovingly confront them.

    • Mr. Green made a statement publicly to the world. It was not personal. I made a response to his false teaching publicly as well. Its not personal. Public statements deserve public refutations. Common sense. You are using illogical reasoning in how you argue.

    • And we all are sooo sure he would even respond to a private email right? whatever dude. Everything in my article is biblical with scripture references.

    • Also this article is not a response to a personal sin against me or Whitedraganawa it’s a response against false teachings and doctrines. Christians are called to refute false doctrines and teachings. The scripture reference you just shared refers to someone sinning against another person not in reference to false teachings. Here are the verses on how to respond to false teachings:

      I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: -Galatians 1:6
      Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. -Galatians 1:7
      But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. -Galatians 1:8
      As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. -Galatians 1:9

      Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. -1 John 4:1

      2 John 1:5-11 KJV
      5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

      So it’s pretty clear dealing with someone who teaches false doctrine is totally different than dealing with someone who personally sins.

  29. Ok help me out Bro I searched you tube about Tommy Greens first marriage and I can’t find it. So if it’s really there copy the link and send it to me. Also you mentioned you arn’t into denominations. Some non denominational churches are very biblical and fundamental in there beliefs however I’ve seen a lot that arn’t they are very watered down in their teachings, and instead of actually preaching the true Gospel of Christ they teach this feel good Christianity. They don’t want to preach about being a sinner and if you don’t accept Christ as personal savior your destiny is eternal death in hell. In fact I’ve heard some preach there is no hell and if God was loving he wouldn’t send anyone there. Those are completely false teachings. I don’t believe that the Baptists are the only ones teaching the true Gospel or that they are the only exclusive denomination. In fact Baptists really are not a denomination. I’m in agreement with Whitedraganawa that there is no church greater than one or the other. However I personally prefere the Baptists for 2 reasons, most are not afrade to keep teaching the true gospel of Christ and they will not compromise on things like same sex marriage, divorce, and other teachings. Now this doesn’t mean that other churches arn’t following that same example. The other reason I’ve chosen the Baptists is they have a history that goes back pretty far even before the Protestant Reformation. Baptists technically are not Protestants. At the time of the reformation they were known as the Anabaptists and before that known as the Waldensians . The Waldensians go all the way back to to about 1100 AD. There were other groups before that going back to the apostolic early church. There were always people who believed in the true Gospel of Christ and were always separate from the Roman Catholic Church. The Charismatic Movement only goes back about 100 years and as I just explained true Fundamental Christianity goes back a lot farther than that and Whitedraganawa is right most of those non denominational churches are break offs or their doctrine is based off the Charismatic Movement and as I explained before when I left the Charismatic Movement I never experienced so much ridicule and scornfulness from so many people who were suppose to be my friends just because I rejected the Charismatic Doctrine.

  30. For some reason or another God has it in his word that a divorced person is no longer qualified for ministry. I gave you the verses. Maybe instead of arguing with me you ought to be arguing with God. He’s the one who wrote the scriptures. I didn’t write it.

    • So your saying he can’t witness or share the gospel cause he Is divorced? If u guys really believe that, then U and white dragon really are not in tuned with God at all. And if his wife did cheat on him, he is not in any wrong. so u guys can keep quoting scripture but you are not using it right, at least not in regards to him sharing the gospel at concerts.What he does at concerts is exactly that. He preaches the gospel. Where is all this he can’t do ministry stuff coming from. A concert isn’t even at a local church most of the times. So u and white dragon need to get it straight, and shut ur mouths cuz he is prolly doing more for the kingdom then u guys posting this bull crap.

  31. Also if your Church is technically Baptist let me ask you this; do they believe in eternal security? Once saved always saved? Or do they believe Salvation can be lost? Do they believe that with the canonization of the the New Testament certain things like speaking in tongues ceased? Or do they believe those gifts are for today? If you answer yes to the latter questions than that is not a Baptist church. Baptists believe Salvation cannot be lost and that once the New Testament was complete speaking in tongues and faith healers were done.

  32. 2 Corinthians 5:17-20English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)

    17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.[a] The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling[b] the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

    2 Corinthians 5:17, “If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come,”

    If you believe this verse to be true shouldn’t you believe that that sin is washed away as well?

  33. He can Witness but not be a minister or deacon being divorced disqualifies him as I said in my earlier post with the verses I used. Being in a ministry and witnessing one on one are 2 different things and another thing I will not shut my mouth or anything when it comes to biblical truth. Also if you don’t like what we have to say don’t read it. Why are you torturing yourself reading something you hate? Don’t ever try to silence people. The 1st amendment of the US Constitution which I faught for says we can, and also the bible commands us to call out false teaching. I was in the Army and did a tour in Afghanistan. I had buddies that died protecting this right to freedom. Don’t you ever dare say I can’t speak what I believe again. If say I’m not in tuned with God that’s fine I accept your condemnation. Because it doesn’t matter what you think it matters what God thinks. What I say comes from the bible. If you don’t like it you don’t have to read it and you will not change my mind especially telling me to shut up!

  34. Empowered by the Spirit

    The Holy Spirit empowers believers for Christian witness and service. The promise of the Father is freely available to all who believe in Jesus Christ, thereby enabling them to exercise the powers of the age to come in ministry and mission. The Holy Spirit desires to continually fill each believer with power to witness and imparts His supernatural gifts for the edification of the body and the work of ministry in the world. All the gifts of the Holy Spirit at work in the church of the first century are available today and are to be earnestly desired and practiced in an orderly manner. The gifts are essential to the mission of the Church in the world today.

  35. Oh I see than I hate to tell you but that’s not a Baptist church. In fact it’s a Pentecostal Church without the name Pentecostal in it. I used to be involved and believe in all that. I don’t anymore it’s a big hoax. I don’t believe that speaking in tongues is relevant for today because we have the New Testament. There is no point in it and faith healing I don’t believe in it the way that Pentecostals believe in it. I believe God heals today but with those so called faith healers like Jimmy Swaggart or Benny Hinn. That was also reserved for the Apostles to establish the Gospel. I’ve seen God heal sickness through fervent prayer through believers I believe that still happens yes. Here’s a link I shared this before please take the time to read through it. It makes a lot of sense.

    http://baptistbulletin.org/the-baptist-bulletin-magazine/what-about-divine-healing/

    • Is everything you promote and everything sleepinmg giant promotes and the videos from tommy green something matt chandler promotes? Like claiming ti have visited heaven and hugged jesus and been implanted with some object from this guy who was suposedly jesus?

  36. Well said my friend. I took a look at the so called Village Church and Mr Wier claimed it was a Baptist Church. I looked at the doctrine and I was right it’s a Charismatic doctrine just not bearing the name. I almost laughed.

    • That is popular right now. Also I am not sure if Matt Chandler believes that people can visit heaven. I am pretty sure he does not.

  37. Hey whitedragon and brandon got some good news for u guys. Just in, report heard 2 weeks ago. My buddy who survived an accident that he should have not even lived let alone walked away from , had severe back injuries, he had a broken back before that like 6 months to year before and was told he would have pain the rest of his life. So sitting too long or standing too long would put him in allot of pain, he couldn’t do normal stuff like play basketball or other leisure activities. But guess what ? He got healed! Here is the kicker u wanna know how it happened? He went to a ” charismatic church” aka Bethel in redding ca, he was prayed over they spoke in tongues, he fell out. Saw jesus, jesus picked him up and sent him on his way. He woke up was told he would be healed in the morning when he woke up,Guess what happened? he is healed! But his story defies ur guys ” beliefs” , tongues, falling out, and seeing jesus, but the truth is it happened and the results were he was healed. What do u gotta say about that? That those things can’t happens today? Get outta here, get off ur soap boxes and wake up! Y’all r lame and closed mind to God u can post or send me some bull crap now but u can’t deny the facts and reality of my buddies testimony. Jesus once said he couldn’t do miracles cuz of unbelief in a certain town. Well metaphorically speaking that’s ur guys mind right now , don’t be like those people, ur disease of false doctrine isn’t a good thing to post anymore so keep it to yourself!

    • What is his name? Where can he be found to verify this? How can we know for a fact he had a broken back? What if in a month he is back to feeling sore? Only time will tell.

  38. And this is verifiable how? Just someone’s word right? No different than what I saw when I grew up in the Charismatic church. I saw a lot of fake stuff there. So answer me this question: Why for nearly 2000 years was that not used? Don’t tell me because people weren’t right with God or whatever. Why for almost 2000 years was that doctrine in place until the early 1900s? From the 1st century to the early 1900s there weren’t any Charismatic churches. Are you saying the church Christ established ceased to exist from the apostles until you all rediscovered the truth? I have this to say you are dead wrong in 2 ways. 1st thing is Christ promised that the church would never cease to exist. There would always be a light in the world.

    And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. -Matthew 16:18

    That’s a promise that the church would always stand and that nothing in this world could overtake it.

    Second history proves that there were churches other than the Catholic Church before the Protestant reformation that taught the same doctrine Baptists and other Evangelical denominations do today. That it was with the Apostles. So what your saying is for 1800 years God let the churches teach false doctrine? I would highly doubt that. You might want to research some church history as well.

    • I respect the constitution and and that the fact that u are war vet I commend u on that truly. But u and this white dragon dude are wrong on the gifts and miracles, what about Azusa street revival in the early 1900’s and what my friend experienced was real. Not some made up crap. Ur diminishing Gods gifts cuz u have seen them miss used or people truly not in the Spirit, u can’t live like that. If u applied that logic to everything else u would be considered foolish. All I’m saying is u guys are worshiping God on altar of false doctrine through the neglection and denial of gifts and in all reality it’s a form of idolatry. So im telling u guys to shut ur mouth is also for the benefit of you guys cuz The Lord doesn’t approve of a mis representation of Him. He still loves u guys but it is not ok with this stuff u guys believe and teach. Its flat out heresy. Define charismatic? Seriously do a word study. Ur idea of charismatic is not what the word mean. Guarantee it just by the way u guys talk and view all of this. Charismatic root form is charis = “grace”. U better pray that ur church believes in charismatic or else they don’t believe in grace.which means ur not in the real church. The body of Christ. U guys don’t want believe in gifts cuz u haven’t seen them used right. Don’t use charismatic anymore to describe what ur thinking of cuz it doesn’t fit ur vocab. U guys are ignorant of the what that word actually means. Cuz it’s “charis” /charismatic is a all thought the NT . There is ur biblical authority for u! John1:17 ” for the law was given by Moses, but ( charis) grace and truth came by jesus christ. Well jesus was full of “charis” that’s Greek word if u didnt know.

      • The word charismatic in its current form has been adopted by post pentecostals who invaded the mainline evangelical churches with their beliefs. It has nothing to do with simply with the word charis meaning grace. That is a faulty argument. Many false religions use terms that could be found in the bible to describe themselves. That does not mean they are automatically correct.

        Now you are calling everyone a heretic who does not believe in the charismatic supernatural gifts being valid for today. So the entire history of the church was in heresy and no one went to heaven up until 1898 when the pentecostals introduced their new doctrines? And then the AZUSA street revival which cannot prove anything you are using as evidence? Barking like dogs eh…literally that is what they were doing and the LA Times reports it.

        Also how can someone misuse a spiritual gift given by God?

  39. Also you have no biblical or legal authority to stop us from posting what we believe in. I told you about that I’m a war Vet. So stop trying to silence us we have every right to believe in what we believe in. Since you didn’t get it the first time I said not to try to silence us here’s something I think you need to read. The 1st Amendment to the US Constitution in case you’ve forgotten that.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Our founding fathers were mostly Christians they believed in the Free will of man that even God allows us to have. So you saying we have to stop posting what we believe in is both very UnAmerican and very UnChristian.

  40. You still didn’t answer my question. So your saying for nearly 2000 years the church taught false doctrine than in the early 1900s at the Azusa street revivals? Come on answer the question. Your the typical charismatic I dealt with when I left that movement. Your no different than the way my old friends and family treated me. You’ve been disrespectful by calling us names because we don’t agree with you. Now I know I’m not perfect either. If you feel what we are saying is false yes I agree you should call it out but if they don’t listen than you leave them alone, that’s what the bible teaches. Now come on answer the question if your so right; for nearly 2000 years the doctrine Charismatics teach wasn’t taught up until around 1900 and the doctrine Baptists teach has been around really since the establishment of the church and was taught all throughout the centuries. So your telling me for 1900 years we taught false doctrine?
    Come on man do you have an answer to that?

    • He has no answer….If he replies he will say nothing relevant to the topic and will not even use Scripture to prove it unless he isolates the text out of the original context to twist it.

  41. Also looked up the word Charismatic in the Websters Dictionary this definition is as follows:

    Main Entry: 1char·is·mat·ic
    Pronunciation: \ˌker-əz-ˈma-tik, ˌka-rəz-\
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: charisma
    Date: circa 1868
    1 : of, relating to, or constituting charisma or charism 2 : having, exhibiting, or based on charisma or charism

    The the adjective form here’s the noun form:

    Main Entry: 2charismatic
    Function: noun
    Date: 1951
    : a member of a religious group or movement that stresses the seeking of direct divine inspiration and charisms (as glossolalia or healing)

    So you my friend are wrong again. You think I’m ignorant? Think again. So your saying we’ve taught idolatry for 1900 years?

    • In one sense charisma does mean “grace” or “freely given to” in biblical greek. But it also does mean attraciveness etc as well. but even so it still does not prove them correct simply because they chose a word to describe themselves.

  42. Hi there im literally brand new to this. But I would like to say a few things about the subject you posted and some retorts to fellow brothers. Its not my intent to argue but to merely ask a few questions. Is tommy’s ministry heresy, if youve seen Gods healing annointing come on someone whom you met earlier with a broken hand and after a public call for healing, by a word from the holy spirit, watch their hand reset itself and have full range of motion and no pain? Im speaking from one of many personal experiences ive had while at one of their “shows”. I say it like that because their shows are more like praise and worship. In fact they have stopped in the middle of their set to obey the leading of the holy spirit and have a simple either acoustic or occepella praise and worship service. I have witnessed some of the meanest, hardest, angriest people break before the presence of the Lord while at their concert, because of the anointing and call that they have and they let Gods love and mercy shine through them, allowing those who would have never given thought to Jesus, to experience his love and GRACE in the realest way possible. Ive sine in your earlier retorts to people claiming to have witnessed miracles, saying “whats his name? Do you have proof?” What about when Jesus appeared to the disciples after coming out of the grave, and Thomas doubting because he hadnt seen him. And when jesus appeared he said “you believe because you’ve seen, but blessed are those who have NOT seen and yet believe” have you ever seen God? Or jesus for that matter? If not, then why do you believe in him? According to your logic with which you use to discount your brothers in christ, than you have no grounds to believe. Im merely trying to make a point that God does miracles, whether you see them or not, rejoice with those who have felt hia presence and experienced his healing love. God has many names in the hebrew language, jehova raffa, God the healer, Jehove shalom, God of peace, and the lust goes on, all to try to describe his many attributes. I believe whole heartedly in the word. Especially when in genisis, it says “and God said, let us make man in our own image”. And in 1 Corinthians 13 : 5 where he describes love. If what he describes there is what love truly and we are called to love our neighbor as jesus has loved us than the only way thats possible is if we, being believers have been given, by grace and by faith through and in Jesus, have the same spirit (and by extension) power that Jesus has. He said that we would do the same works and even greater works. If thats the case than why not rejoice when a brother gives his testimony? You can say im taking those scriptures out of context but then what about the great commission? Or the ten comandments? Or the creation of man? I take the word seriously and literally. I know from personal experience the love and power of the holy spirit operating in and through me. And earnestly pray for the supernatural on a daily level to the extent that it replaces the natural world we know. Again im not arguing. I wont argue because there is no edification in doing that. Just a thought and a seed. In love.

    • Did you watch a hand really reset itself magically? Yes who was he, name, address, verification etc please.

      Doubting Thomas? What he did was not really that bad. Thomas was a loyal person yet pessimistic. Not that he was always skeptical without reason. The fact he was pessimistic is different. Jesus did not rebuke him for it but met Thomas at his weakness and offered him proof He rose from the dead. What you are claiming Christians must be is gullible without any questions for any claim anyone makes, that if anyone would demand proof then they are somehow bad people. If healing miracles were really as widespreas as you charismatics claim then there would be enough proof already going on that all kinds of people would believe in them and not only you. No one would have to go to a Sleeping Giant show to see such a sight either.

      And yes I believe Sleeping Giants ministry promotes heresy for the reasons in the original article up above.

      Emotional manipulation is widespread and it does not have to just be with praise and worship music. Any religion or idea put to the type of emotional music Sleeping Giant uses could move anyone to tears or feel broken if they let it.

  43. There is no need to tear down people like Tommy Green and Mattie Montgomery. Firstly they are your brothers in Christ whether you like it or not. Second I think it is very strong and not correct to say these two men have “demonic influence”. Why are hundreds being saved at concerts? are you saying that these kids are saying yes to a false Jesus? Also, how would you propose we reach those who have been hurt by the traditional church who have rejected those who are different from them and caused anger and hate towards the church? As far as i can see, Tommy and Mattie are attempting to reach out to those who have felt cast out. Why are we tearing them apart? If you have something to say to them, say it to them, not tear them down in front of the world. If you really want to actually do something, go and talk to Mattie and Tommy yourself and tell them how you feel. If they are true Godly men at heart then they will listen to you.

    • “There is no need to tear down people like Tommy Green and Mattie Montgomery.”

      There is a difference between tearing someone down for insults sake and tearing down someones beliefs. In this case there is a real need to tear down their false teaching.

      “Firstly they are your brothers in Christ whether you like it or not.”

      How do you know that?

      “Second I think it is very strong and not correct to say these two men have “demonic influence”. Why are hundreds being saved at concerts? are you saying that these kids are saying yes to a false Jesus?”

      It actually is correct to say their beliefs are demonically influenced, or they are simply just making them up and lying. And yes those kids are saying yes to a false Jesus. It is another Jesus and not the Jesus from the Bible and there is no other Jesus but the true Jesus, so yes they are saying yes to a false Jesus. Say that 5 times fast. Thanks.

      ” Also, how would you propose we reach those who have been hurt by the traditional church who have rejected those who are different from them and caused anger and hate towards the church? As far as i can see, Tommy and Mattie are attempting to reach out to those who have felt cast out. Why are we tearing them apart?”

      Well, how do YOU propose we reach them? I propose we reach them with sound doctrine, solid bible teaching and truth. That is what worked for me. The truth is Mattie and Tommy are the ones tearing down the true church and promoting a false idea of what church is and judging true Christian that go to actual churches as well as claiming traditional churches are all teaching false things about homosexuality and other ideas that are new and not anything the historic church ever promoted. That is why I would be tearing apart their false teachings.

      “If you have something to say to them, say it to them, not tear them down in front of the world. If you really want to actually do something, go and talk to Mattie and Tommy yourself and tell them how you feel. If they are true Godly men at heart then they will listen to you.”

      Sure like I am going to drive or fly all the way to Redlands, California or wherever Green lives and knock on his door because I know EXACLTY wear he lives and am super rich….oh and I’ll just drive down to wherever in Alabama Mattie Mont lives and do the same. get real dude. They make public statements they deserve a public response by true Christian. Get a clue.

  44. I also want to say that I appreciate you expressing your opinion and I respect you as my brother in Christ. I am happy to see you looking to see the truth spoken.

  45. Just imagine if you would spend half as much time trying to reach souls for Christ as you guys do arguing with each other over something that God will decide on in the end and which writing in your blog will do nothing to change.

    But hey let he who knows exactly what is right and wrong be the one to cast the stone.

    I hope that God speaks to your heart to pray for the lost and help them find salvation instead of arguing about things that have no direct affect on you. Nor are you effecting change by all of this. Just sad that people feel the need to show others how they are right and everyone else is wrong. Smh

    • Maybe this blog does not take alot of time out of my life compared to other activities. Maybe you should stop your hypocritical judgment against me and maybe thuis blog actually DOES reach souls for Christ and having discussions and arguing for truth is how the Bible teaches us to promote the truth! And my blog has already done enough to change people’s lives by God’s will and thanks to Him.

      “But hey let he who knows exactly what is right and wrong be the one to cast the stone.”

      Apparently that is you and you are the one casting the first stone hypocrite.

      Arguing anything on my blog has a direct affect on the body of Christ and Christianity in general and that has everything to do with me! Why are you posting on this blog and arguing against me if my blog has nothing to do with you? Why not spend your time reaching lost souls for Christ half as much as you are arguing on my blog? Oh wait you are a hypocrite and just being snarky and insulting.

      Everything you said about me and my blog is absolutely baseless and you are just talking a lot of hot air because what I wrote makes you mad because you are not a true Christian and believe in false ideologies you love so much. You prefer hardcore emo scenester christo-music with a flat message that is unbiblical than the truth of God’s actual word. How do I know this? Well apparently its obvious since you are so angry at my blog. lol get over yourself and repent you hypocritical judgmental post modernist.

    • 1) No I have not. I think Sleeping Giant’s music is cheesy, especially their lyrics.

      2) Yes we were very very very terrible. That was the point. Punk freaking rock!

    • Sleeping Giant uses the same silly chuggachuggachugga dun dun dadadad dun dun, chuggachuggachugga dun dun dadadada dun dun crud. Also the clean vocals are so boring and his screaming vocals are weak. I don’t listen to scenecore-nu-metal-core-emo crap. sorry.

  46. I am wondering if you (or any of you) have had an opportunity to talk about any of this with Tommy (or other members of SG)? I realize we can hear them speak at a college, festival, or online video, but to actually speak with someone is golden. Even though the guys are busy I have to believe that they would answer questions you have about their doctrine, teaching, lyrics, or messages. The reason I am commenting here is because I know the guys in the band (present and past members) and I do not want their character or integrity to be dragged through this mud. I know their hearts and their hearts are true. I know they adhere to Scripture. I know they love Jesus and follow Him. I know they want the Kingdom of God advanced in our world. I know they are genuine men full of love and grace. Perhaps, those who question the validity of their relationship with God, calling, message, or band should send them a direct message on one of the many social media websites and ask them for yourselves instead of stand on the sidelines and throw punches in the air with your fists. Just a few thoughts from a brother in Christ.

    • Ya we are all rich enough to fly to california and walk up to tommy’s door step and talk to him. Stop the illogical arguments. You say it in public, I can criticize you in public. End of discussion. If they want to talk about anything and if my small blog has somehow hurt their reputation and they are mad they can easily respond by blogging about it or leaving comments on this argument.
      Also, they have no one to blame but themselves for people calling out their false teachings. Just because someone is genuine does not mean they believe the truth. There are a lot of genuine Islamist terrorists out there but it does not mean they are believing what is true.
      They constantly attack church, Christians in general and act as if they are the spiritual elite while making all kinds of supernatural claims not even found in Scripture and then they attack biblical doctrines Christians have held since the beginning because they read the Bible in its proper context. They attack what is true while promoting a false new age spirituality. Until they repent and stop their nonsense people like me will have something to say about it.

      • That’s right. Don’t stop. You’ve got them dead to rights. Though I imagine you don’t know them personally it seems you have a gift of discernment as far as who they are.
        I was with them and too hardheaded to see it. I kept asking God for signs and He kept showing me things. I’d ask for more signs and I’d get them. I’d get signs within days of my request that were directly related to the topic. Some of the time it was within seconds as I would say a prayer and than look up only to have my eyes zero in on something that they didn’t want me to see or hear something that fit into what was missing from my answer; but God showed me though these things, through signs and wonders.
        I’m a little embarrassed really because I’d ask for another sign and then another, and another… God was so patient with me.
        Hahaha… God is good!

        • Well dude im not sure about the terms “signs and wonders” but I do believe in the providence of God and that God answers prayers to show people what is true. I dont see how that is a supernatural miracle as in the case of bending the laws of science or whatever. But God obviously shows people signs to direct them into His truth and to avoid liars and false teachers so we can be saved from their judgments.

          I am glad God brought you out of such a hard situation and I am glad my blog has given you a place to sort of vent, or express your feelings on your experiences. I dont have to know a popular false teacher personally to criticize them. If what they are saying is in the media and made public then the average public ha a right to respond.
          I have had personal experience with some “hardcore scene” types before though. I have seen SG, XDSX, Clear Convictions and other bands live. I have interacted online with some members of CC etc. It doesnt really matter.

          I am sick of what the hardcore scene became, mainly the Christian scenecore stuff. It is absolutely a joke and the music sucks. Most of the bands are not even real Christians but atheists in disguise or universalists and just making money off of evangelicals and receiving praise they might not get from the secular route. I quit going to shows for many years now since Biola but only went to a few and stood outside to hang out gospel tracts outside “christian” shows then I leave.

          The theology of most of these bands like SG or Looking Foward is completely against Scripture. Even Mattie Montgomery is promoting heresy of anti-sola scriptura when he made outlandish claims that homosexuals are fine and not in sin and “they dont need a book to dictate to them right and wrong.” He literally said that on his blog.

          Also evangelical universities like Biola are hotbeds for breeding heretics who go off with their degrees and capture people in evil doctrines because Biola is so liberal and lax in their interpretations of scripture. All they do is give lip service to Gods word and ideas of truth but their behavior is contrary. What real Christian would give Rick Warren an honorary doctorate?

          • I draw a distinction between “signs and wonders” and miracles, both of which I do believe exist. They are supernatural phenomena. Miracles to me seem more extreme, more obvious of a supernatural experience.
            I also believe that they aren’t something to be focused on, but rather, tend to be a confirmation of something already established that is more important. For instance, Jesus is King. His authority is real. He confirmed it to human eyes and minds through miracles. It was just something to help others see. But to those seeking Miracles, he calls:
            A wicked and adulterous generation…
            looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Jesus then left them and went away. Mt 16:4

            I think that’s the problem with “Tithemi” (that’s their church where XDeathstarX and SG called “home”). In Tithemi, they seemed obsessed with personal power. They wanted to hold themselves in high regards with so many lofty pretensions. “WE”RE HEALERS OF NATIONS!” They in their own words were focused on the “gifts”…
            It’s the focus…
            Do you seek first God and hold these other things as peripheral (come what may) or do you seek power, blessings, miracles, healings, “positions of honor”?? I think they chose from the latter category. They weren’t seeking God.
            They don’t want God… they just want His power. They want what He has. That was what Satan was about too.

            I also believe there are supernatural experiences that are demonic in origin. The Bible states that team Satan is going to work supernaturally…. “The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,”
            2 Thessalonians 2:9

            The questions I wrestled with when I was amongst Tithemi was, “is this real or are they faking it?”
            AND then… “God, is this You?”
            The answer to the first question is, I think… both.
            AND then the answer to the second is, “NO, it’s not of God.”
            For some reason, I never actually saw a healing or miracle when they claimed they happened…. and I was around a lot! Ones they proclaimed and i investigated turned out to be bogus.

            Here’s some of what I did see:

            After wrestling with doubt about the Tithemi ministry, I sensed this subtle whisper telling me to separate myself from them. I wasn’t sure if it was my imagination, my doubts, my conscience, the devil, or God. I specifically asked God, “if this is You… show me something preposterous.” About a week later i was out of that ministry…
            Here’s what unfolded. A 19 year old drug dealer who had just confided in me that he wanted to go back to “slinging dope” (Meth) tried to get me to let him into the bar I worked, to “look around and hang out”…
            As bar security at this upscale college bar in Redlands, I was tasked with keeping under agers, trouble makers, known drug dealers, and bad elements out. Shortly after repeatedly denying him entry he attacked me at the church. He nutted up really, violently threatening to sock me in the face. He dislocated one of my ribs and was threatening to have Bikers come to the church and kill me. As he attempted to make the call, I grabbed his cell, we got into it and i put him on the ground and basically yelled at him like a drill sergeant, “what do you think you’re doing!”
            He got scared and backed down when i held him down and yelled.
            He left glaring at me with a hateful stare, concocted a story about bleeding from the nose that “wouldn’t stop”, having gone to the ER and being diagnosed with “multiple concussions”. It was all a lie. I got death threats, dirty looks, attempts to get me fired from the bar where I worked and the only people that stood by me were the two people that were there and saw what actually happened…. one of which was his roommate.
            Without checking with me or considering the two witnesses to learn that he was the one trying to beat me and that I never struck him; the rest of the leadership team had me step down. What made it more ridiculous was that two of those guys had been sleeping with their girlfriends. Eric Gregson’s brother, the “worship leader”, and another guy from the ministry who was also in SG had been engaging in sexual intercourse with their girlfriends.
            I pointed out that getting angry was not something that could exclude someone from Ministry, that I hadn’t let the sun go down on my anger… but I knew that fornication was definitely in the Bible as something a church leader could not be doing.
            Then they glared at me…
            1 Timothy 5:19 Says not to entertain an accusation against an elder unless it’s brought by 2-3 witness. It is supposed that evil-minded persons might be disposed to bring charges against ministers of the gospel or other officers of the church. It is anticipated that leaders come under attack either spiritual or human…basically originating in the spiritual realm.
            Our two witnesses exposed this young man’s story as a bald faced lie. So not only were there not two or more witnesses as to what happened, but there were two witnesses against the false accuser! The Tithemi leadership in a meeting acknowledged in front of all three of us that the witnesses’ stories match mine identically…. and that my accuser’s story was “wildly different” from our three accounts. They said that they know he was lying. And I was asked to step down despite this. They said it did not matter.
            So I had been shown my preposterous something….
            Think about it:
            A leadership group in a church with a heavy leaning toward Straight Edge in it’s leadership sided with a drug dealing, drug user who they acknowledged themselves to have been lying… they sided with him over an individual in leadership who had been falsely accused. That to me personally was amazing!
            It was like their judgement was not godly, honest, biblical, fair, or even in keeping with the standards of their Straight Edge beliefs.
            I am still amazed by it today. I thank God for this. I thank God for what i saw because it made things clear. It was a sign, it was a wonderment.
            They went against everything they said they believed in, they went against God.
            There were other “signs and wonders” that came as i continued to ask God to show me things. Just amazing things having to do with timing. Constant and persistent confirmations that i truly appreciate for their significance. God went that “extra mile” over and over again for me to help me to understand something that i truly did not want to accept. I take no joy in knowing “what” i know about this Tithemi crew, but i am stoked in the way God showed me.

          • Wow that is some very intense stuff. Very good insights into their mindset and their attitudes. In no way, if what you say is true, could any of these “men” be saved or of God.
            Is there a way I could talk to the 2 witnesses you mentioned to confirm your story?

            Almost the entire Christian hardcore, and also music scene in general is much like what you describe. It has started going in this direction in the late 90’s and just went full blow last decade. It is a shame. I do not trust “christian bands” anymore or care about what they do. It is all about money, fame, and status in the scene. I mean after As I Lay Dying’s frontman (a band I never ever liked and thought sucked) was found out to be a murderer (attempted to have his wife killed) and his admission that almost every so called Christian band are fakes it just confirmed what I already knew.

            What is funny is I saw XDeathstarX a few times and Sleeping Giant maybe twice. I used to own a XDSX hoodie and album. I gave it all away. Also who cares about straight edge that is such an immature movement. I dont need any X’s to be anti-drugs. When sXe became popular in the 90’s and Christian bands started claiming it to be cool I noticed they raised their X’s above their crosses every day. Putting the X before the cross of Christ really alarmed me. And when I was in a band I never claimed sXe with it ever. And to this day if people ask me if I am sXe I say no.

            It is amazing to me that you had your ribs broken by a drug dealer at a church. Do you have skype yet?

    • I have tried Shane. You can’t tell them anything because they “know it all”. You know me and you know I know them. They have all the bravado of youth with not enough discipline of maturity. These guys still refer to themselves and other 20 somethings and 30+ year olds as “kids”.
      I have personally tried to reach out to three band members about a blatant departure from scripture and just got deflection, rudeness and disingenuous responses of well wishes before blocking me on FB.
      Though they say nice words the glares i get from them in public speak volumes… as well as the glares i have gotten from their underlings who could know nothing about it other than they put the word out. Most of these guys will say tons about people that they will never say to your face and if you come at them with directness they will avoid communication and just go back and gripe about you to their crew like passive aggressive cowards. That is how they roll and always have.
      They will only surround themselves with enablers in what they want or feel and take any challenge to their thinking or ways very personal. Prov 12:1 Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but whoever hates correction is stupid.
      Tommy is a lil different from his Redlands boys, but he still has gone in the wrong direction and become misguided.
      Shane, I think it safe to say, from a scriptural standpoint, that you do NOT know their hearts. Only God does.

      • Yeah the scene is like that. It’s why I left hardcore. So I like music? Yeah, but I don’t care about these immature silly scenes and the Christian scene cares more about impressing unbelievers than promoting the truth of the bible.

        I had a similar thing happen to me. i was a huge fan of Clear Convictions and even saw them live, had their album, wore their t-shirt, when I saw them on facebook the singer was nice and talked to me a lot. He was okay if you criticized his music because i think they basically sold out their brutality to sound like singing emo sissies now and scenecore crap. But when I showed him this blog and this article the singer immediately shut me out and told me I was a pharisee and wrong and one of his friends also started harrassing me and shut me out as well. Bunch of cowards. They are all heretics and believe satanic deception. Its best to completely avoid them because as much as they call people like us pharisees and judgmental, they are the ones going to hell not us.

        • I’ll stop short of saying who’s going to hell. I don’t know how many chances any of us get to repent before God has had enough. I think it varies. God in His infinite wisdom has it perfectly figured out as to who get’s more chances than others. I know there are even those demonically possessed brought back from the brink.
          None of these guys are beyond hope… nor are their little minions.
          There are the deceivers and there are the deceived. I pray that both repent.

          • Who is up to God but it is safe to say people believing such spiritual delusions with an absolute refusal to read the bible are not saved people. It is common sense.

            Only God saves and if God wants you saved you will be.

            What does the Bible. specifically the book of Jude say about “deceivers”? If those people who you spent time involved with are deceivers than what does the Bible say their judgment is? What does the bible say about their spiritual state? No true believers, a true saved person, deceives others.

            And yes they have to repent. If they do not it is obvious they are not workers of God. So why is it “scary” or “wrong” to state facts that such people are going to hell?

        • You are right about avoiding them though. My life has been so much better the farther i get away from these guys… and their group. I have a mixture of disgust and sadness when i see them. I get this sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach when i run across even one of them when i’m back in that town.

          • …and you are right about the road they’re on. I won’t call what you’re saying “wrong” and have not. I am scared for them. I spent some time with these guys and acquired some degree of familiarity. I think i was deluding myself to some extent. I wanted to believe that they were sincere.
            I know that they are fake. I know that they are showmen. It’s all an act. Tragic, really…

          • Its a cult man. They are delusional and think they are the leaders in some important movement of God but its a lie from Satan and they do anything to ignore the truth including hurting people like you and shunning you. All of the intense hate they spew against Churches is hypocritical when the Christian scene is guilty of the exact same things.

            I think you should get on skype and tlak to me man. Send me your info on youtube.

          • In 2008 or was it 2007….I went to a show at Redlands and it was some church basement show. I forgot the name maybe it said Oasis or something. But XDeathstarX, Impending Doom, and other bands played. This was before Sleeping Giant. A few secular bands played too.

            I used to love all of these christian bands but then realized their false teachings and behavior and I gave all of my music away and all of my band shirts. I dont even dress punk or hardcore anymore much.
            Also the secular scene is also a joke. I dont need to waste my time with such people who hate God 24/7 nor do I need to impress them and make a band that is Christian just to be friends and act like we all are a part of a brotherhood when we are not. There is no punk brotherhood, there is no hardcore brotherhood its all a joke. People need to grow up and become men. Im not a “hardcore kid” im too old for that crap. I do like hardcore punk music but I dont buy it anymore.

    • I have tried Shane. You can’t tell them anything because they “know it all”. You know me and you know I know them. They have all the bravado of youth with not enough discipline of maturity. These guys still refer to themselves and other 20 somethings and 30+ year olds as “kids”.
      I have personally tried to reach out to three band members about a blatant departure from scripture and just got deflection, rudeness and disingenuous responses of well wishes before blocking me on FB.
      Though they say nice words the glares i get from them in public speak volumes… as well as the glares i have gotten from their underlings who could know nothing about it other than they put the word out. Most of these guys will say tons about people that they will never say to your face and if you come at them with directness they will avoid communication and just go back and gripe about you to their crew like passive aggressive cowards. That is how they roll and always have.
      They will only surround themselves with enablers in what they want or feel and take any challenge to their thinking or ways very personal. Prov 12:1 Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but whoever hates correction is stupid.
      Tommy is a lil different from his Redlands boys, but he still has gone in the wrong direction and become misguided.
      Shane, I think it safe to say, from a scriptural standpoint, that you do NOT know their hearts. Only God does.

  47. Have you ever heard Tommy Green give his testimony? No? So you know that his divorce with his first wife was not his decision? No? This post displays ignorance on the part of the author in several areas. Please do better job doing research especially if you are setting out to attack someone.

    • When writing this I was not aware of any testimony given when reseraching. Afterwards I did find some interview where he says his wife before he was a christian left him. However, his entire reason for her being his wife is totally screwed up.

      He steels a woman from a man who is her husband. He has an adulterous affair with her over and over while she is still married. The woman never divorces her husband, instead he commits suicide over it and left a note to say Tommy Green should keep her because she loves him. The man killed himself because of Tommy Green.

      Tommy Green keeps the woman as his wife and marries her. Over time some fake Christian hardcore scene dude steels the wife from Tommy, so Tommy got a taste of his own medicine. Then Tommy is left depressed and alone. Then he claims he got saved, then he marries his current wife.

      Thats basically why he was divorced. It was a screwed up situation from the start. A man with a testimony I do not believe is fit for pastorship.

      If it had been a proper marriage and she cheated on him I could understand…but no it was completely screwed up and evil from the start.

      besides the marriage issue all of Tommy’s silly displays of behavior and admitting he “knows nothing” does not make him a good leader for God’s people.

      • He was not yet a child of God, and as such was a child of the world. He was following the world’s voice not God’s. So yes he entered into a bad relationship and affair. I am so glad that God’s qualification of me does not depend on what I do. I mean it’s not like Paul was a murderer, not like Simon was a zealot. If the saving work of Jesus Christ depended on us, we would all be damned, and have no leaders in the church.

        • Even if his adulterous, divorce, and forced suicide of the husband is an exception, the rest of my article shows the unbiblical teachings and undignified behavior that also disqualifies him for ministry as a leader.

          Look what has happened to Mark Driscoll lately. His undignified behavior and stupidity finally was enough for people to call him to step down. Maybe Green is not saying vulgar things but the rest of his behavior is irreverent and blasphemous and is full of false teaching.

          According to your logic a person who was once a rapist before he was a Christian should also become a pastor.

          Paul was not a physical murderer, he was a religious leader of the state promoting strict religious laws. He was not a serial killer. Also God manifested Himself to Paul and chose Him for leadership and it is written in Gods word that He was. Also Paul himself wrote the qualifications for what a pastor should be with only allows a man who is the husband of one wife.

          I am sorry that facts and logic and proper biblcial interpretation seem to speak negatively of your rock and roll scenecore prophet along with his awesome tattoos and crunchy guitar breakdowns. But so be it. Gods word speaks.

  48. I don’t think that being like the world to reach the world is the way. The problem I have with the Christian Rock scene now of days is this; the people who you all say are saved at those concerts, many of them end up back into the world because they arn’t led to a local church to be discipled so they can grow in their new found faith. I’ve seen that time and time again. I’ve noticed that when the Gospel of Christ is actually preached by just old fashioned preaching and teaching and using the old hymns most of the people saved that way their lives are changed and that local church disciples them so they will grow. So many churches today are trying to be like the world to reach the world and using a watered down Gospel to do it. Churches need to get back to winning the lost for Christ and helping them grow in their faith and not forgetting about them.

  49. “The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice.” (‭Philippians‬ ‭1‬:‭17-18‬ NIV)…At that time, it can be understood that Paul was a major leader in spreading Christ’s message of salvation. Now that he was in prison, there was an open door for others to step in and share dividing messages. Paul didn’t seem to be too concerned with someone else’s ministry, he only cared that in the end, Christ’s was being preached. I suppose it was because he truly believed that God could use that opportunity to reach unbelievers and guide them towards truth.
    Now on an unrelated issue, there are those who have stepped in and have claimed “My friend was healed!” to which you request a name/adress. Fair enough, I can’t blame you for seeking validity in their claims. I imagine the reason they choose not to hand over that info is because they respect their friends privacy. I do however challenge your judgemt in asking someone for such things and yet not take the time to seek out contact with Mr. Green himself. If you are earnest in seeking validity in the arguments you have against Mr. Green, wouldn’t you at least seek him out personally?

    • Nice try, but Paul was specifically talking about people who actually are preaching the real Jesus, but out of selfish motives. Yes people can preach what is true and do it out of selfish ambition. Paul was saying he is not worried about such people since Christ is still being preached.

      Paul also said in 2 Corinthians 11:3-4

      “But I fear that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your minds may be corrupted from a complete and pure devotion to Christ. For it a person comes and preaches ANOTHER JESUS, WHOM WE DID NOT PREACH, OR RECEIVE A DIFFERENT SPIRIT, which you had not received, OR A DIFFERENT GOSPEL, which you had not accepted, you put up with it splendidly!”

      Later in verse 13 he states “For wuch people are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.”

      Obviously Paul was worried about such people!!! So your original verse you quoted is out of context on this issue since Green is not preaching the true gospel or the true Jesus. Its another Jesus.

      You are also using a logical fallacy that if someone ever disagrees with someone on some issue they MUST talk to them personally about it. That is ridiculous. People who teach publicly and make public statements deserve an equally public response and disagreemt. Get over it! So every time I disagree with somoene I have to personall meet with them? I disagree with Obama practically all levels, so I now have to go personally to the white house and talk to him about it? That is stupid.

      • I respect your display of logic and sound doctrine. I know these guys from SG and from many personal experiences, found that neither of those things appeal to or work with them.
        I do believe in signs and wonders and do believe i have had an abundance of signs from God that they are not sound.

  50. There is so much here to digest. You present many good points. I have a busy life, but have been picking through this article and your related comments. I agree with you.
    I like the mention of “primal scream therapy”… just saw that!
    The man who brought Tommy down this road incorporates a lot of pop psychology in his ministry…manipulation as well. I don’t know how much he’s involved with Tommy now but there was a time when Tommy was first getting into these “magical” experiences of “angel feathers” and “trips to heaven” that he referred to his mentor in this stuff as his “spiritual father”…
    To me, he is the proverbial “bitter root” as referred to in the Bible.
    He’s the man he was sitting across the table with at the Starbucks in Redlands when he claims he went to Heaven.

    • All of those experiences were 100% demonc if they did occur and it is obvious. I truly believe Tommy Green is most likely demon possessed or heavily influenced by demons in his actions and beliefs.

      I believe the entire “christian” scenecore nonsense is 90% false christianity and record labels like Facedown are responsible for spreading satanic doctrines at shows and promoting bands. The early scene had none of this and just turned into it. I knew something was up when Christian metal bands turned atheist or broke up or reformed with completely different members and some atheists.

      • After i left the leadership of this group, i still felt a need to come around periodically. I did so for about another two years. Redlands is a small town and our circles still did intersect.
        Mostly I hoped to see change, maybe some sort of maturity and growth. I wanted to know if they were progressing in the direction that they had or repenting and becoming more honest and honorable about things and in their dealings.
        I dropped in on Tithemi maybe once a month sometimes going a few months not coming around at all and sometimes, rarely, twice a month. More than half the time i was received with cold indifference or glares… which amused me.
        Sometimes in moments of doubt i speculated that God was with us both and that their side and mine were both right with God; that we were all just imperfect vessels that God was using in different ways… and that He had us going in different directions, but both for Him.
        About a year after my departure from any position at that church i was there talking with a couple guys whose friend and bandmate was one of the two who had been a witness to the incident that went down between the drug dealer and myself at that church.
        Jeff, the witness had chosen to never go back again after that. He felt strongly from what he saw at that meeting that the leadership was deeply in sin. He was especially put off by their inability to refute my point about two of them being in sexual sin with their girlfriends and that “they” should step down.
        As i spoke with his friends and asked about him, i thought, “this isn’t about me, maybe it’s better if he does return just to get some fellowship and be plugged in.” This was about 9 PM on a Sunday night. We were down in the basement of Oasis. I prayed on the spot:

        God, i truly want to be selfless about this. I need no personal validation for myself, but i am not sure about the situation. I’m thinking of telling Jeff that what happened to me was an isolated incident and is nothing that he should be concerned about. Everybody makes mistakes and I’m sure they’ve come a long way since then when they were sleeping with their girlfriends. I am not hurt by it and i don’t want to be what gets in the way of his fellowship.

        I then asked God if “this” was a right course, and if it was not and i was off then “show me something”; “help me to understand.” I was having some moments of self doubt and uncertainty. (It is very easy to doubt one’s convictions when you are surrounded by those that do not hold the same values or convictions.)
        The next morning I was at a house of some Turkish people who were asking me to rent out a room to one of their family friends, an elderly gentleman. Their nephew was a part of Tithemi (and later would be part of the now defunct ANGR records). The Turks had a girl living with them that went to Tithemi. She was maybe 19 or 20.
        As i sat downstairs in the kitchen I heard the door to her bedroom up the stairs open up and she went into the bathroom and turned on the shower. It was early in the morning so i could hear everything in the house because everybody else was still asleep.
        Also coming out of that girl’s bedroom was “Kevey D”. As he came down the stairs he looked at me with a look of shock and dismay as i sat there at the bottom of the stairs. Then he looked away quickly as if very nervous and trying to pretend that he did not see me. This guy was also from the leadership team at Tithemi. He had also on occasion performed in SG and been a member of XDSX.
        There was no avoiding it as i was sitting there quietly and calmly at the bottom of the stairs and he could not get past me without acknowledging my presence. He mustered a look up and said “What’s up”… (He still couldn’t look me in the eye.)
        I nodded at him back and he went out the door looking at me finally, but very sheepishly… he looked the very definition of the word “guilty”. I had my answer…
        God had showed me a very clear message that the Tithemi leadership was still up to what they had been doing a year before as this was now a third member of the leadership team engaging in sexual activity. God had showed me answer to my prayer in about 12 hours from my praying the request!!!!
        God is amazing.
        Sometime later Kevey D called me to confront me about my reprimanding of his underage (19yr old) sister who had been trying to sneak into the “21 and over” bar where i worked.
        I told him point blank, “you have no business trying to lecture me on anything, you have no moral authority over me, you were having sex with your girlfriend.” He blathered on a few more words about me being more gentle and without denying it, quickly hung up on me.
        And on that day God will say, “depart from me you workers of lawlessness…. I never knew you.”

        • DANG!!!! Im so glad I got rid of all my xDSX gear and music!! What a bunch of fakes.

          When XDSX first came around no one knew they were “christian” and online people talked about how hard they were and how brutal they are. Like they are typical tough guys. Then I was at a show and saw them then they talk about Jesus and im like what the heck?? They are Christians?! Awesome!! So after that I bought their music and a hoodie and was so happy about it. Dude its the Wu Tang Clan of hardcore! But after awhile their music started to suck and I heard they are a big part of what Sleeping Giant and other are involved in, the new spirituality or false miracles and demonic spirituality masquerading as light.
          I went to a show on Holloweed around 2008 or 2009 and I used footage from the show as part of a project for school about intercultural studies. I was with 2 girls and this one guy who was in a 1 man band called Ganglia and released his own e-grind music. Anyway, this is pretty funny. Maybe you were at that show and I was at the same show as you one time but we never met.

  51. Eric Gregson was the main dude in XDSX. Tommy Green had been in XDSX in the past, just like quite literally 25 other people. Eric ran that band into the ground and got everything he could out of it.
    Tommy had gotten out of XDSX years before and in 06/07 started SG and it was his own pet project second to ministry. While Eric was out running around like a glory hound trying to promote “his band” and his self, Tommy stayed behind… getting into the Bible and keeping occupied with prayer, fasting and ministry… (until somewhere along the way he and then they all went off the rails). However, it was after at least two years or more of a break, that Tommy got back into the band scene thing. I guess i just see Tommy as more sincere than Eric…
    I had always thought Tommy had his priorities straight.
    Tommy and Eric are very different in their character. To me Eric is obviously a fake and sellout. I always found him to be talentless and unoriginal. He struck me as a poser as he’s pretty good at posing. His most common pose… he acts as though he’s hard or something. Eric’s got a pretty good poker face as he puts up this front and plays it cool. He’s not cool. Everything you see in SG that turns you off is probably from Eric’s influences. He co-opted that band after it’s first album and Tommy’s rapid success at Facedown fest 07. Eric wanted “that”.
    Tommy had talent, charm, skills, and many other attributes that I believe he compromised by hanging with these slackers.
    “Bad company corrupts good character.”
    Tommy also picked up some ideas about magical powers and along the way and he’s actually the one that brought that to the table. Eric just took it and made it his. Eric Gregson AKA “E Money” saw marketing potential and $$ in telling people what their itching ears want to hear. “Personal Power AND the righteousness of god…”
    I guess the ideas that you’ve presented makes me believe that Tommy is actually demonized, which is far more tragic and explains a lot! Where as, Eric is a very mercenary individual, consciously making decision that appeal to his own selfish desires, Tommy has surrendered to a higher power and is “under control”… which is far more insidious.

    • I think its soo sad. and facedown records made a crap ton of money off of merch for DS and SG and all the other “worship hardcore” bands because Christian kids usually come from well to do families and have tons of cash to mail order crap online and get albums, hoodies, shirts. And then its the IN thing to do. And if you do not like SLeeping Giant then all the evangelical-core kids look at you like you are a jerk or an atheist. Its totally stupid.
      yeah Deathstar was pretty tough and they did act like badasses on stage and it was cool watching them. When I first saw these bands I was very impressed that they mentioned Christ and talked about the gospel. I did not know they were holy-rollers yet,. but when I found out about all this “unleashing the spirit upon you!!!!!” nonsense and their views on supernatualism I was completely turned off and very afraid and knew it was a serious problem. I then would say uhhhh yeah that is not biblical but you know no one cares or listens. Kids do what they want. Ive dealt with these charismatic cultists many times in life under different groups. The entire philosophy of Christian punk and hardcore in its majority is very unbiblical and sensual and elitist. Yes there are a few punks and hardcore or metalhead Christians who have solid theology but the majority is seriously messed up. And most bands are fake and love glory for themselves. The evangelical hardcore rock stars. A few people involved in the scene back in the day were sincere and caring about God but they had bad theology and got lost in it to their own doom. That is unless they repent.
      The entire idea of the church being evil or needing to be destroyed or how church only hurts people is really really really ignorant and a ploy by satan. Go to any christian music fest as well and it is totally godless. sex, drugs and rock and roll is basically what everyone is doing, even the straight edge kids haha.

      All the christian bands just want to impress atheists and extreme liberals, anarchists and whatever antichrist types of bands. But I am not sure how serious the secular scene takes the supernatural nonsense sleeping giant promotes.

      facedown records really sold out and only releases scenecore boring bands and emo. All christian bands simply copy each other and start singing in the chorus now with clean vocals and less intense music and its always similar.

      Anyway check your facebook, check your youtube, and please send me your skype details.

      • “Go to any christian music fest as well and it is totally godless. sex, drugs and rock and roll is basically what everyone is doing, even the straight edge kids haha.”
        Dude, I know exactly what you mean! I worked at a pretty hip Martini Lounge in Redlands from 07 to 2010. I’m not really a bar type and I don’t drink. Still, I was willing to work security there because I needed the cash and the owner needed at least one sober individual of sound mind in his employment.
        I met some nice people, I met people that wanted fun, I met doctors and other medical workers from Loma Linda Medical Center. I met people from all over the world working at ESRI in town, I met a lot of U of R students from good families. I liked the target demographics to whom this bar catered. They tended to be better behaved than the average folk.
        There were also people that i had to filter out in order to make the bar a safe and better environment…”weeding the garden”, so to speak. Sometimes it was hard not to despair when you’re dealing with drunks, drugged out, belligerent patrons, people having sex in the bathrooms, drug dealing, under agers trying to sneak in, guys trying to follow girls into the bathroom, blackmailers, people cussing you out, threats, physical attacks, etc…AND THAT WAS JUST THE PEOPLE I MET THROUGH TITHEMI….
        I have to say, the absolute worst people to come through that bar were individuals I knew from that fake church.
        Quite often i would give them a pass because i knew them. I knew some hadn’t been raised right. Some of them, i just felt needed some special treatment because they were people i knew from “church”… ultimately i came to the point where i said,
        “NO… these guys don’t have any respect for me, this place or themselves. They don’t care that i need this job. They probably want me to lose it because they’re haters. They don’t care about anything but themselves!!! They get no special treatment, anymore.”
        I went on to line up my thinking with the Word of God. Basically, I had been entrusted with “a stewardship” from my boss. He gave me authority to execute what my judgement knew to be the best for his business. God didn’t want me to give these kids, “kids” who happened to be usually 20 something year old “kids”, what was not mine to give. Free passes belonged to my boss, the owner… and i knew he didn’t like people putting his liquor license in jeopardy…. that’s why he entrusted me. I had to do my job as though i was doing it unto the Lord.
        I began throwing them out. Of course only when they did something, but most of them were so fricken stuuupid!!! they didn’t understand that they had done something wrong! I got a reputation among them for being mean or capricious in my decisions. Sometimes you can’t fix stupid… when arrogance is involved.
        This one 27 year old girl i knew from that church had tried to sneak a girl in on her 20th birthday. Who does that? Those people didn’t realize that underagers from that church wanting entry into the bar was already a sore subject for me… being that it was a 19 year old drug dealer from that church that got into it with me shortly after getting pissed at my denying his entry. That ended in me leaving any position in that church and being falsely vilified and mischaracterized as “the guy that beats up kids in church”.
        No… they were definitely a liability to have around. Their dishonesty alone was ridiculous.
        The 20 year old girl was the one that Kevey D (Tithemi leader, XDSX, SG) had been sleeping with upstairs at the house…the one that was revealed to me that morning God decided to pull their covers…
        Anyway, I told her older friend that if she tried that again, tried to sneak her under age friend in… than she and her friends in that group would all be banned from the bar. Her response was to shoo me away with her hand in my face while repeatedly saying “F#%k you, f#%k off…”
        She got banned.
        It was truly nothing personal. I took no joy in it and told her so. She responded, “Oh yeah! Right!!”
        (Honesty is so misunderstood by liars.)
        I really didn’t care what these people had to say about me. I couldn’t win with them ever, anyway. Nor did i want to be what it takes to be “a winner” in their eyes. At least i could keep my self respect and integrity in the Lord.
        My methodology was simple. I figured that when at that door I would be both respectful and professional. “Welcome to the Vault… may I see your ID’s, please.”
        If that simple request elicited any kind of resistance, attitude, hostility, or belligerence rather than simply showing me the ID… than I’d interact with them further. If they appeared drunk or troublesome, I’d just say, “I’m sorry, I can’t let you in. You appear over served” or “I can’t let that kinda energy in this place, it’s really chill in there, maybe come back another night.” If they overreacted to my suggestion than they were banned for good.
        I was just doing my job. If they were rude to me, the first person they encountered at the bar; than chances were that they were going to be rude to the bartenders, my coworkers, and the other patrons….
        Better to keep them out now than to have to pull them out later in a headlock because they were fighting or stirring up trouble.
        It was just logical, nothing personal.
        I applied the same logic to Tithemi, that fake church…
        “Where there’s smoke there’s fire.” All the back biting and mistreatment of myself and some others to me was indicative of a bigger problem. It was truly not personal. God has more than taken care of me according to His riches and glory. HE’s blessed me beyond my imagination since I left those guys behind!
        I still remember everything because it’s significant. These stories I share speak volumes about who they are….

  52. Funny you should mention the “merch”… Here’s a funny story, I met a guy (Jerod) who was active in a small independent Redlands church that emulated Tithemi. We were at a Redlands Coffee shop and as we spoke I told him how much i liked living at the beach. I went on to say, “WHAT IF i told you about a pastor out at the beach that also had a bumper sticker business?” I elaborated on this tale:
    What if i told you he makes bumper stickers for cars and they’re mostly Christian oriented or secular, but some of the stickers he produces for sale say stuff like, “The Devil is a friend of mine.” and “I live for Satan.” What would you think?

    He responded with disgust and strong conviction that this was definitely WRONG. He cited multiple scriptures as to why it was wrong. He made a judgment using his discernment and knowledge of scripture. I than opened up someone’s Mac Book and using their FB account accessed Eric Gregson’s page since Eric’s blocked me. I showed Jerod first, what happens when you type “Satan is my Homeboy” into the search engine…then “Drug Free for Satan”. They both come up to “Merch Connection”.
    Finally, I showed Jerod, Eric Gregson’s FB page; it said owner “Merch Connection”….
    Jerod began to backpedal. He told me that i should not share this with anyone else. He started to make excuses and try and justify Eric’s decisions.
    I pointed out to him that just as the prophet Nathan came to King David with a hypothetical story about a man stealing a poor man’s lamb in order to get an honest judgement out of David, I too told a hypothetical story to Jerod, but that his original judgement was correct.
    Jerod went on to tell people that i was “talking trash” on Eric. Also, suspiciously strange in the timing, Eric removed Merch Connection from his FB page within days of my making my point to Jerod.
    Today, if you pull up Eric’ page it has Merch Connection listed as “past”, but he’s still involved and he was selling those shirts. I think he’s still the owner…or maybe a silent partner. After all, he’s got to keep up appearances, right?

  53. Here’s another one… when i got into it with the 19 drug dealer at their church and they had me step down one of the reasons that was cited to me was that “people were talking over at the local coffee-shop about the incident and it just didn’t look good.” I believe that was Tommy’s and Eric’s weighing in on the matter.
    Down the road some time later I pull into the parking lot of the coffee shop and the baristas approach my car laughing about something….
    They told me that there’s a video of Eric Gregson betting this much younger man three bucks if he’ll take a lifesaver candy off Eric’s penis using only his mouth… The guy took the bet and they said that several people have seen it because someone recorded it using their camera phone. The young man who took the bet was a slightly effeminate twerp named Charlie. The coffee shop people said that his new nickname was now
    “Three Buck Chuck”.
    They went on about how ridiculous that church crew was and that they thought them all just fakes… I told them “don’t look at me, I’m not with those guys.”
    I heard about the incident again while hanging out with the Turks who would later start ANGR records, SG’s label. The turks were saying how disgusting it was, and they didn’t know what Eric was thinking.
    So… i called Eric and told him what i heard, let him know i wanted to bring it to his attention because “people were talking over at the local coffee-shop about the incident and it just didn’t look good.”
    I then asked him if it was true. Eric paused for a long time as if thinking, and then said, “no”…. which was hardly convincing. His next statement was, “so what if it is true?”
    I said, “well i think you’ll have to agree that it’s highly inappropriate behavior for a person in a pastor’s position and you should probably step down.”
    He seemed to get angry and said he was going to have a talk with the Turks and we got off the phone.
    The next night at Redlands Market Night i was at a vegetable stand buying stuff when I looked up and saw Eric standing there with his wife. He was glaring at me.
    1) “by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” According to their standards, a false accusation is enough for someone to step down. Eric didn’t even have the honor or integrity to live by his own standards that he dictated to others.
    2)with some many witnesses it is highly questionable whether it even was a “false” accusation.
    3)Eric seemed to be actually confirming that it happened in his own week way. (long pause,… “no”…”but what if i did?”)
    I know i never saw the effeminate one, Charlie, at that coffee shop ever again. People there we’re adamant they saw something and they were pretty ruthless in the teasing of poor Charlie. When I saw Charlie outside a wedding, he hid his face from me in shame.
    I’d say something happened.
    Once again God allowed me to see their hypocrisy…

    • If that is true that is incredibly gross but someone would have to prove it with the actual video for it be proven. But if it did happen, that is gross and that is pretty gay too. Why would you even do that to begin with?

      • I think they thought they wanted to be relevant to popular culture.
        Have you seen the Jackass movies? They did similar stuff in that movie or comparable… there are plenty of people at a popular Redlands coffee shop that swear it’s true. Charlie moved out of town after that.
        Just for the record, their church supported gay marriage. The said “it wasn’t worth arguing over so you should just vote for it.”

        • I guess the point I’m trying to make is not whether Eric did or didn’t do what the people were saying (I believe he did just by his weak denial to my direct questioning), but the IRONY that they had established a standard in having me step down as being that you only needed to be falsely accused of a wrong doing and it didn’t matter if the witnesses refuted the accusation, the mere accusation was reason enough to step down. That was incredibly ironic and hypocritical of them. What’s more they specifically mentioned this particular coffee shop and said people were talking there…
          How it was so a case of poetic justice then when down the road people at that very coffee shop were talking about Eric being a weirdo perv…

          • …the idea was that we as Christians will look bad and lose our witness by burning a bridge if we persist in holding out on this issue. The idea was that the only way to show gays that we cared about them was to give them their rights to marry so that they’d be willing to then listen to the gospel message. That’s how it was explained to me by George Bowker and that’s how it was explained to the 70 or so members of Tithemi by Eric Gregson.
            That’s why Eric specifically said we should vote “NO” on the proposition that would ban gay marriage in CA.
            I know this girl Anna that was on the leadership team was promoting voting “NO” on Prop 8…. basically “No on 8” means that you’re for gay marriage.
            Young people in CA voted “no” but prop 8 passed. Basically the young are willing to change and redefine everything from scripture to values.
            Reminds me of Judges 21:25
            “In those days Israel had no king; all the people did whatever seemed right in their own eyes.”
            We (the church) are the Spiritual “Israel”.

          • Ya these types took over the Christian heavy music scene. So if you are a biblical Christian in the scene you won’t be accepted. hey have more in common with atheists and new agers than Christianity.

  54. THE GENESIS OF ALL THE “SUPERNATURAL” STUFF THAT SLEEPING GIANT AND IT’S HOME CHURCH TITHEMI STARTED TO FOCUS ON GOT IT’S START FROM ONE MAN’S INFLUENCE OVER TOMMY GREEN.
    George Bowker, a pastor at a small failing church on the outskirts of Redlands… a place called Mentone, mentored Tommy Green in this direction. George is a very likable individual. Tommy took to him and eventually got him connected with everyone at our church. Tommy would refer to George as his “spiritual father”.
    George would incorporate a lot of pop psychology and positive affirmations in his dealings with people. Of course everyone likes to be complimented and validated so George’s sweet words got him far in this group of mostly young people. There was definitely manipulation of young minds. Many people were gullible and not well versed in the scriptures, but even those that knew the Bible would have a tough time with George’s twists and turns on scripture.
    I would say George might of seen himself as a character like the fictional “Charles Xavier” (Professor X) from from the X-men. He kept pushing this superhuman supernatural agenda and pumping these kids up that they were going to save the world and be agents of change, “healers of nations”. Eventually, after his influence they’d pray pantomiming with their hands as though they were shooting out invisible rays of energy or “dropping prayer bombs” and simulating their hands opening up as though some magic puff of smoke and explosion was happening with each of their prayer. “Oh, the magnitude of their powers….”
    They made that motion… and they’d make sound effects too!! I remember a little explosion sound they’d make with their mouths as they’d motion with their hand and a flick of their wrist during a prayer over some situation. It was ridiculous, but George knew what they liked… and he gave it to them.
    He was unlocking “their powers” and pumping them up with all this false theology and delusions of grandeur. I had long since checked out of that fellowship, but i still came by to see what they were becoming and try and make sense of it all. Every time i came back i was all the more thankful that i wasn’t a part of them anymore, but i hoped that maybe one of them or all would turn away from this make believe and stop playing this stupid game. “God is not mocked…”
    George was not an honest man… as the movie portrays “Xavier’s School for Gifted Youngsters”, he led them toward “School of Supernatural Ministry” and later that’s where Eric ended up continuing the facade. Tommy had passed the ministry to Eric and passed George on to Eric, as well.
    To me, now… George is more like Palpatine from the Star Wars storyline. It was a bit insidious how he moved his way in to influence these young minds. Scripturally, i see now that George Bowker was the “bitter root” spoken of in Hebrews12:15. The passage refers to a person that brings “principle of doctrine or practice so radically corrupt as to spread corruption all around.”
    It’s a man that brings poison into the fellowship “and through him many become defiled.”
    George found fertile ground in their arrogant hearts. His compliments and encouragements appealed to them as he used that as his “in” and told them “what their itching ears wanted to hear.” 2 Timothy 4:3

    • Incidentally, these guys of SG, XDeathstarX, Tithemi… they operated on a principle of reciprocating promotion. In other words, when you were amongst them, they’d sometimes compliment you, but this was disingenuous. They intended to win favor and a return compliment. Gradually through all the compliments flying back and forth a pecking order would arise complete with those at the top that would get the most compliments and those lower on the rung who remained in a supporting role.
      I personally felt more kingdom minded as far as seeking “the kingdom of God and His righteousness…” I couldn’t see myself being fake and just complimenting people for frivolous or worldly reasons. Eventually, i fell out of favor. I would not turn a blind eye to things that were wrong, wicked, or cruel… basically these guys secret lives.
      Just three weeks before i was asked to step down from my role in the leadership team there, Eric proclaimed that i was “the backbone” of that church. I would wonder sometimes afterward, “does that mean Tithemi is spineless?”
      I guess what I’m getting at is Tithemi probably got what they deserved. You had a lot of people wanting to fit in and willing to sell out to do so. You had even more that were all about seeking personal power… then to top of it all off, there was this culture of phoniness and promotion by man. In this environment, someone like George Bowker found a perfect place to operate.

      • It seems that George isn’t even a pastor anymore. He’s a life coach or health coach, now. He lost a bunch of weight, i think going vegan, and is now promoting this as the way to feel good.
        Couldn’t make any money churning out undisciplined disciples that believe in doing whatever they want, so now he’s out hustling and promoting himself and his positive affirmation abilities as a means to lose weight.
        “You can do it!!”

        • and this is spreading through the christian hardcore scene. popular bands within the scene set standards for other bands to join in.

          • They’re only doing what they want. Satanic motto is
            “do what YOU will” not do “God’s will”…
            I remember one of the teachings George introduced was that it’s not our place as believers to correct a brother when they’re doing wrong or are in sin. He explained that the Holy Spirit would convict their heart and correct them.
            I remember thinking “what if the brother in sin is “quenching the Spirit” and therefore cannot respond to the promptings and leanings of the Holy Spirit?” Also, we all are apt to be in the flesh at one moment or another. Isn’t it nice to be surrounded by believers that can partner with you and God to help?
            What if God has sent another believer to a wayward or backsliding Christian to let them know what God wants of them. George’s teaching was not Biblical and any logical Christian could see that it was not a sustainable model or sound. In fact, it was dysfunctional.
            Still, George, Eric Gregson, and Kevey D were all teaching it. Others may have been as well, but those are the ones I heard teaching this stuff. Kevey D being the one sleeping with his girlfriend upstairs at the house where the Lord pulled his covers and exposed him to me that morning after my prayer for answers.

          • ya these bands simply claim Christianity to stay popular and sell records becuase the secular scene didnt care about their music. lol

      • George is the one that Tommy was sitting with at the Starbucks in Redlands when he claims to have had that mystical experience of going to Heaven. As I recall the story from Tommy, George somewhat led him into this experience or presided over it in some way.

          • Oh, here’s how George Bowker justified not holding your brother accountable. I heard him, Eric Gregson, and Kevey D teach this.
            Basically the premise is “God COVERS our sins…” The operative word is “cover”… George and, by indoctrination, his minions turned that into it’s in God’s “character” to cover our sins so we as believers should, in order to be in line with God’s character, cover up each others sins rather than exposing them or calling them out.
            Again, a departure from scripture and a twisting of the intention of God’s guiding words.
            “Cover” does not mean “cover up”…

            I’m telling you, it was truly a surreal experience being in the midst of this. There was a sense of disbelief that it was really happening as i watched it unfolding around me…
            I kind of have an idea what it must of been like in Nazi Germany for the people who saw what was happening all around them, but could do nothing to stop it. The masses flocked to the “New Way” and the holdouts must have been in disbelief as it was happening.

  55. George Bowker had so much to do with the shaping of Tommy and Eric’s theology. In that group, he had access to many young people and as i recall, there were a handful of young men that he’d gravitate to and seemingly groom. Interestingly, they seemed to be the more handsome 18-20 year old males that he’d focus on. The four I’m thinking of were outwardly good looking with very little going on upstairs. He liked them dumb.
    The 19 year old drug dealer that i got into it with at that church after my refusal to let him into my work, was one of them. The drug dealer, TH was definitely using drugs, but there was more. I think he’s had a psychotic break from reality. “TH”, I’ll call him, would lie about working for the fire department, lie and lie and lie… It might be said that with his drug usage and proximity to George, he very likely was demonized. I just know the truth was not in him.
    What’s interesting about George and TH (drug dealer) is that after the incident and my run in with TH, George pushed behind the scenes for Eric to have me removed. When i asked George if he was getting involved in the issue and weighing in against me, he (probably knowing that it was getting back to me) admitted he was. He said church needed to be a “safe place” for kids to go. I remember clearly… CLEARLY… sharing with George how TH had confided in me that he wanted to go back to “slinging dope” and that TH was a a drug dealer. I explained to George that the whole incident was a direct result of TH being mad with me not letting him in the bar where i worked security and was tasked with stamping out drug activity. I TOLD GEORGE BOWKER THAT T.H. WAS A DRUG DEALER and that i had not broadcast this, but it was definitely relevant to the issue that he and i had as to why he went off.
    You know what George Bowker’s response was?
    HE GLARED AT ME. He glared at me for a few moments and then angrily, but calmly said, “do not repeat that…to anyone ever again.”
    …that whole “cover up” thing that he’d been preaching and teaching.
    The truth had no business in George Bowker’s, Eric Gregson’s, Tommy Green’s, or TH-the drug dealer’s world view.

    Down the road i learned from various parties that George Bowker had been attempting to get T.H. to go to the police. He had offered to drive him down to the the authorities, so TH could file a complaint against me.
    So, how ironic that the pastor that preaches “cover up” would be trying actively to expose me to a false accusation documented in a police report. THANK GOD IN HEAVEN that i had those two witnesses to the incident, one of which was TH’s roommate. TH in his desire to take me out still had sense enough and a good enough grasp of reality to know that he didn’t want to draw attention to himself and his drug dealing ways by risking documenting a false accusation with law enforcement.
    Put in perspective:
    George Bowker wants me to never repeat again that TH was drug dealing…
    but
    George Bowker wants TH to repeat his lie and false accusation against me to the police department…

    I’ll say it again, THANK GOD ALMIGHTY, i had witnesses!!!
    (TH said i beat him bloody, witnesses said he was punching at me and i didn’t hit him once… that he was lying)
    Over time, the whole thing got swept under the rug, “cover up”…
    but i left that fellowship with mixed feelings. Over all, despite their kind and loving words, I see and know they do not love the truth nor seek justice. They operate on pretense and posturing as though they’re all so great and righteous and loving and it’s all a show. Anything or anyone that upsets that narrative has no place in their midsts as far as they’re concerned… you’ll get the glower and glares.
    Sleeping Giant/Tithemi was and is bad for my health. It just took a long time for that to sink in. The glares alone speak volumes of the nature of their hearts. Animals do that in the animal kingdom. Humans, especially in church leadership should not be giving dirty looks and glares…but most especially when they’re wrong.

      • There was NO BLOOD. He made it up…

        He figured because I’m a nice guy that I couldn’t defend myself. He swore in a violent rage that he was going to sock me in the face. We were on a couch and I got ahold of his wrists while he was trying to hit me.
        Ultimately he hit me in the side dislocating one of my ribs, but at the time it just made me yell at him in a booming voice that scared him and he backed down.
        He left in front of the two witnesses NOT bleeding and completely unhurt… except for his pride.
        I got a call from Eric Gregson’s brother a couple hours later saying that TH said we got in a fight and that I kept beating him and his nose wont stop bleeding.
        Days later Ryan Gregson said, “there were four people that were there, 3 of the stories are identical, one story is wildly different; we know (TH) is lying.”
        At that meeting they still affirmed that they wanted me to step down even though they knew I was being lied on and the accusations were false.
        The two witnesses were there, but they didn’t care. They said they had already made their decision.
        They had partnered with HELL and a demonic attack by a drugged out liar who was coming after me because of my job. The job was to keep drug dealers like him out of my work, the bar where I was security. TH was too young to be in the bar anyway since the age in CA is 21.
        The drug dealer stopped going to that church, the roommate that was there no longer had him as a roommate after that and was glad to be rid of him because he was a liar and wasn’t even paying his share of the rent.
        TH’s boss at the coffee shop called my boss and tried to get me fired from the bar because she believed his sob story/lie. The following month he crossed her and she fired him and got him blackballed from all the businesses in Redlands. She called around town telling everyone that he was a worthless person and not to hire him.
        TH moved back to Yucaipa to sell drugs and do God knows what. Last I heard, he was a Tattoo artist.

        • Wow TH is a real winner. But calling people up and telling people he is a worthless person could get her in trouble for slander. He could sue.

          Anyway, Timethi sounds like a real winner group of people! I wish I could be a member and be so hardcore too and get huge guaged ears and tattoos!!!

          • Her name is Amy, and she went to bat for TH at first believing that he was truly a victim. She called my boss at the bar and said, “why is one of your employees beating up one of my employees?”
            Redlands is a small town and they were friends. She wanted me fired because being a boss and all she was accustomed to throwing her weight around and getting her way.
            My boss confronted me that night and i explained that the kid was a troubled druggy and a liar. He said he didn’t know what to believe. He let it slide. One month or so later TH crossed Amy and incurred her wrath. She fired him and made some calls to other businesses.
            TH told me this tidbit personally. He said she was telling everyone he was “a worthless person”. Don’t know if those were her words or his embellishment… Either way, the guy who wanted me out of the ministry there and out of the way a my job, ended up getting turned on by the person he was trying to use to get me fired. AND she made sure he couldn’t get hired… anywhere.
            Poetic justice i suppose. I didn’t need Tithemi but i did need that job. As a matter of fact, i needed Tithemi about as much as i needed a stab in the back, unnecessary drama, headaches, and evil liars in my life.

  56. I remember when SG did their first Facedown fest in 07. It was an amazing show. There was a guy walking around in the crowd called “Shameless”. I imagine he was called “that” because he was about 4’6″ and had a mangled hand, like he had suffered some catastrophic injury that caused it to be twisted up. It had two fingers sticking out like a crab claw. In spite of this, he would walk up to anybody and talk about Jesus. He was completely uninhibited. He was shameless and it was beautiful.
    Shameless prayed for me. He prayed with and for a lot of people that night. I thought him a sincere and ernest individual.
    Day after Facedown fest, I was at Tithemi a bit early with J.R. Bermuda and a girl named Amanda. J.R. was the bassist in SG. We were hanging out and he started to make his hand into a twisted claw like Shameless’… while making a funny noise with his mouth.
    Amanda nervously laughed and said, “OH! That’s messed up! You’re making fun of that one guy that was there last night…”
    J.R. just looked at her and smiled; he didn’t deny it.
    I chimed in, “Yeah, Shameless… What do ya think of that guy?”
    His response shocked me…
    He responded, “That guy is a PIECE… OF… CRAP…” .
    “Whaat? Why!” I exclaimed.
    J.R. immediately clammed up.
    “Why’d you say that?” I continued.
    He refused to say anymore.
    My mind raced with thoughts, “I am on a leadership team with this guy, and he’s calling people something that is worse than garbage.” A team is only as strong as it’s weakest link and I felt that Jesus was not served by this kind of perspective and contempt for fellow human beings.
    I kept trying to imagine what is the worst thing that Shameless could be that J.R. would feel it acceptable to call him “a piece of crap”, but I kept coming back to “there’s no excuse for it”.
    I tried a couple more times to talk with J.R. in private about this, but he wouldn’t have it. After a few days, I went to George Bowker to get advice. He responded in a dismissive manner saying something to the effect that people in the hardcore scene have a different way of looking at things. He left it at that. He wouldn’t weigh in on it as to whether it was right or wrong.
    Still not satisfied, I spoke with Tommy Green a couple weeks later when he came into town. At the news, Tommy seemed visibly angry. He said he’d talk to J.R. about it. Than he went back to SLC. So i brought it up at the next leadership meeting in which the seven of us got together to talk over church affairs. When i brought it up, Eric Gregson stuck up for J.R. and got mad at me. He was saying that it was just a hand gesture that he picked up on tour and a lot of guys were doing it. He claimed that it had nothing to do with Shameless.
    He would not explain to me why then J.R. didn’t deny it when Amanda and I both said he was referring to Shameless… nor why J.R. called Shameless “a piece of crap”.
    I got the sense it was like Eric was saying “it’s like this because I said so… AND don’t ask anymore questions.”
    A week later when Tommy came back to Redlands again, I asked him to explain it to me. At that time Tommy warned me that i was rocking the boat and i shouldn’t make this an issue if i want to be welcome there at the group. He said I might lose favor if i bring it up anymore. He also said just for the sake of keeping things cool he was willing to believe it wasn’t Shameless’ hand that JR was making fun of, that it was unrelated.
    I said to Tommy, I just didn’t understand then why he called him a “piece of crap” and that “that” really bothered me. Tommy paused for a moment and than answered, “he said it because Shameless prayed the lyrics of Whoremonger over Florida…”
    “What? what do you mean?” I asked.
    Tommy answered that he prayed, “hell release your hold over this son.”

    “Florida” was a guy in the Tithemi church who had lived in Florida. “Whoremonger” was a song about fornication and Shameless had prayed a variation of the final words of that song over a guy we all knew.
    All that time i was trying to make sense of it all and get answers as to “why”… and when i finally did, i was left more confused than before.
    I didn’t ask anymore questions of Tommy. I was maybe afraid of what I’d find. To me this was indefensible and J.R. was acting like a rotten person.
    1) if they were representatives of Jesus, than their songs were NOT theirs; they belonged to GOD.
    2) praise God that someone was inspired by the lyrics enough to pray them over someone in order to bind any temptation that all guys face.
    3) Jesus said:
    And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
    Calling someone “a fool” is condemning them and saying they are beyond hope. How is calling someone “crap” not the same?
    4) you couldn’t tell any of them any of this because their band had just gone on to the “Big Time”.

    I am truly ashamed that i didn’t just bow out of that ministry at that point. Of course, if i hadn’t stayed on, i probably wouldn’t have seen all the other nut job fakery that those lying fakes got into; but still… it’s like i experienced a cognitive dissonance.
    I couldn’t quite come to terms with the reality that these guys weren’t being led by the Spirit or following the Word. I couldn’t grasp that it was a secretive cult operating out of the light. I was finally able to see so much and process it eventually to come to a conclusion that i now have.
    There was nothing honorable about Tommy Green in this matter, either. He lacked the moral courage to stand up for what he knew was right. On judgement day he will be more accountable than me. At least i tried…

  57. Wow!! It’s amazing how much effort people will put into trying to defunk someone testimony about personal experences. The problem with basing your entire faith exclusively on the Bible is that man is falible. Man has a way of taking God’s words out of context and using them to support his own agenda. I’m sorry you feel the way you do, sir, but I’m going to have to respectfullly disagree with your position on Mr. Green. A lot of my own testimony is based on personal experience such as Tommy Green. A lot of unbelievers will never come to repentance if all we can offer them is God’s word. Personal experence is God given as means of testimony. I will stand by Tommy Green and keep fighting the good fight. I will pray for you. Peace be with you…

    • So are all personal experiences true and accurate? Are they ever false?
      Are you saying it is hard to understand God’s Word? Then why did He give us His word if we would just screw up interpreting it?

      Do you hold this view on say things like a math textbook, science studies or anything else? Should personal experience be the ultimate authority for such things?

    • Robert Ferreri, personal experiences are more open to interpretation than the Word of God.
      They are subjective, that is to say…based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
      I’m sure you feel good feelings for Tommy (as do i), but if these feelings for him and what he says contradict what I know is just or right (what lines up with God’s Word) than they are untrustworthy.
      If “man is falible” as you say, than how come you don’t apply that to Tommy Green?

  58. I’d just like to make it clear for anyone that has difficulty understanding and doesn’t “get it”…
    I love Tommy Green, Eric, J.R., and even the drug dealer from their church that dislocated my rib because I wouldn’t let him in the bar to sling dope…
    If I am going to model God’s heart then Hebrews 12:6 is applicable… “For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
    Disagreeing with a persons thoughts, deeds or actions… even hating those things, does not translate into hating the person.
    If you love somebody you’ll tell them what they need to hear rather than what they want to hear. That’s the difference between a friend and an enabler.
    Jesus didn’t really pull any punches… He either checked somebody or he said nothing. He wasn’t afraid to offend.

  59. This whole thing is crap. For you to write a whole article attacking Sleeping Giant is a pretty bad way of showing how solid of a Christian you really are. Read the bible a little closer buddy.

    • Actually the article does show my solid Christianity in the fact I am standing up for true biblical faith and rejecting the false teachings of Sleeping Giant, especially Tommy Green. It is evident in my article I quote Scripture and bring up biblical points showing I have read the bible (more than once), so I suggest you read the article again and look up the scripture and realize you are wrong for following this band as it profanes the truth of Christ and gives out a lie making its followers delusional.

  60. Hey bro: I appreciate your thoughtful, well-structured thoughts/arguements. I think what you wrote is important and insightful in many ways and I am sincerely glad you got this out to people. I would like to note, however, that Yahweh God (yes, I know Him!) used For Today to save me. I would just caution you, in a loving way (quick aside: Internet conversations usually stink because it is hard to explicate/discern the tone or sarcasm or genuineness of the person’s message…please accept my claim that I am being completely genuine and striving to be loving!) — anyways, I would caution you to throw away For Today’s ministry based on what I assume (again…this is a nuetral assumption…I just don’t know you and so I am making a guess off of a lack of familiarity with your experiences) to be limited information: just a blog post. If Mattie made a statement that was unbiblical in any way, I can pretty much guaruntee it was a mistake because he is human. Mattie and For Today are all for the Kingdom and for proper biblical learning/application and for Jesus. I feel like I could toss a bunch of examples up (i.e. Mattie joined the band back in the day on the condition that all the dudes in the band have a daily Bible study together, I have heard mattie pray and it is not contraditory to biblical doctrines, etc.), but I think that would be a waste of everyone’s time….rather, I would encourage you to really look into (experience, ask questions, pray about) the ministry of For Today before making a strong value judgement on them. I didn’t have a “spiritual-emotional experience” when God saved me ~5 years ago, but the one thing that I can remember was that God used For Today’s ministry as a way for Him to get me. And I will always appreciate For Today for that — though, of course, Soli Deo Gloria. Anyways brother, these are just some thoughts that I have. Again, I appreciate your message and heart for the listeners and performers (and record labels) of the Christian hardcore scene…I agree, let’s pray for them!

  61. Also this might not be an appropriate place to post this (…I’m unfamiliar with the wordpress protocol or how to send you this privately!), but I figured you would enjoy this comic. Depending on one’s perspective (not my own, I would say), it is somewhat relevant to a topic in this post: http://adam4d.com/love-jesus/

  62. John 7:24 “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

    Psalm 58:1-2 “Do you indeed decree what is right, you gods?
    Do you judge the children of man uprightly? No, in your hearts you devise wrongs; your hands deal out violence on earth.”

    James 4:11 “Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.”

    There are many more examples found in Scripture about not passing unrighteous judgment. I hope you reconsider your words as you are doing more harm than good by your attacks. Maybe if we all spend a little more time dealing with the plank in our own eye!

  63. We absolutely are to to judge when it comes to sound doctrine and theology.

    Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. -2 Timothy 4:2

    Anything that goes against the fundamental doctrine of Christianity is is to be reproved and rebuked. This thread is absolutely correct. That band along with other ones do go against fundamental doctrine along with Word of Faith/Charismatic teachers. Oh and Whitedragonawa thanks for introducing me to John MacArthurs teachings. I’ve been listening to some of his sermons on YouTube. Also a few months ago a friend who was also trapped in the Charismatic Movement just got delivered from it. Praise God he saw the truth.

    • The Band Sleeping Giant is an amazing light that shines and promotes love and peace and forgiveness. That is what I get from the band. They call their audience to take their cross and carrry it without shame. This is what is need in the church! We don’t need religious doctrine and jealousy get in the way of how God is touching lives through the band. You are Loved good sir! In Jesus name:)!

      • Did you or did you not read the verse above? I’m going to repeat it. In fact here’s the whole passage.

        1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

        2 Timothy 4:1-4

        Paul here is telling Timothy to correct false doctrines. Verse 2 says to reprove, rebuke, and exhort with long suffering but also doctrine. I find it strange you say we don’t need religious doctrine when the bible says opposite. Next verse,

        3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

        You saying we don’t need doctrine falls almost perfectly with that verse for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine.

        Teachers having itching of the ears. In today’s modern English that itching of the ears translates to saying what a person wants to hear rather than what they need to hear. Sleeping Giant does exactly that. They will not teach come to Jesus because you are a sinner and the wrath of God is upon you and the only way to be spared Gods Wrath through death in hell is to seek his forgiveness and accept his salvation. Instead they teach what people want to here. They teach a different Gospel and a different Gospel does NOT save. They teach new age positive thinking and that’s not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Next verse

        4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

        That’s a perfect example of what those followers are doing they turn their ears from the truth to lies. Just because teaching people to forgive others is not the Gospel. It’s a command for Christians to forgive others yes, but forgiving someone will NOT save someone from their sins. You can’t go by oh lives are being changed. A lot of things can change people lives. The lottery can change people’s lives. If they’re not teaching how to be saved and forgiven of sin, they aren’t teaching the truth.

  64. Tommy and his band are on fire with the Holy Spirit. They are reaching children and lost and broken with ways that cannot be explained by everyday people. Everyone has a different way of communicating with the Spirit of the living God. Everyone is convicted differently. The fact is he has love in his heart that cannot be contained. Just like me. Its time to Love each other in unity and acceptance. We have all been broken. Now the cross has healed us. Now lets go slam dance and throw up our peace signs in Jesus name! You are entitled to your own opinion about the band. Lift our brothers in Christ up! Be not Jealous but join the movement. Or just sit back trying to demonize everything. Your choice. Be the resistance. You are loved good sir.

  65. Oh man, I cannot even bring myself to reading this. All I see is one sinner screaming and crying about another sinner and telling them to repent. God help you child! We are all damned without the blood of Christ, and quite frankly, if Heaven is to be filled with people like you then maybe Hell cannot be that bad after all(I joke, but people like you make me really question my faith in Christ).

    • Who are you? and why is it your mission to bash this guy…Mr 18 inch dagger..lol…white dragon LOL!! Just bcuz Im saved doesnt mean I wont call a spade a spade…you are a mess dude! you need a hobby, a job…maybe a hug. Posting a bash-blog is “white-trashy” Mr Dragon..LOL! that cracks me up! and who made you imperial wizard enough to judge this guy, Ill bet you think your doing God service huh? So did the pharisees pal! I DO read GOds word, ALOT…and NO-WHERE does it say that Jesus would hammer this guy publicly and judge him…”its the Holy Spirits job to convict the world of sin” NKJV…read that please. Then you attack other people on this site “like ^^^ who is probably “like me” just sick of seeing your garbage about this kid..who BTW is NOT a mess, heretic, or any other hateful thing you say about him. SO what….he went on YT and said some weird stuff…dude…what are you even doing? who gave you a website to rip on other people? Truth be told…ANYONES life could be under a microscope and be torn in to pieces…why do you think its your job. Heres some advice and then Im logging off of here to never return, I feel bad that I am unloading like this but better to be honest than fake…huh? Why dont you and the Sanhedrin get some counseling and stop wasting your time and other peoples. Im sure your life is totally sound and above reproach? NO…then knock it off…this whole blog is juvenile and foolish…go help a kid in your church who struggles or go spend yourself on something valuable. NONE of your responses to anyone have been sound anyway! they ALL revolve around your thinking and are in no way backed up by sound biblical knowledge…you can twist the word to say anything man and that is…well…disgusting..especially when its your job to “do good to all men, especially those of the household of faith..see Gal 6:10” and if your saying that he isnt a believer then you REALLY ARE judging his heart and your in sin my friend…go repent, get a hobby, maybe a puppy or something… and look, you can sit there and say all kinds of things about my faith to and that its too bad Im an idiot bcuz im backing this guy or whatever..i dont care..when I see this kind of stuff it turns my stomach and makes me think “wow…what God are you really serving?” maybe someone will post a similar blog about you too! have a nice day

  66. So I read through a lot of these comments, and I’m just gonna avoid addressing the points you made in your rant entirely. Look at the way you treat the people you’re “trying to educate.” Whether you’re right or not, treating people (christians AND non-christians alike) like they’re stupid or inferior simply because you know where you stand, is unloving and literally the worst way to convince anyone of anything. Jesus taught love. To the sinners, he was kind. To the pharisees, he was relatively gentle. Ignore the points you’re trying to make. Your frustration is unfounded, and Biola doesn’t make you a Jesus-expert. Jesus makes you a Jesus-expert, if he so chooses.

    • Yes, you will always ignore the points I make and go off into a tangent on something else while judging someone you do not agree with at the same time condemning judging. Biola has nothing to do with this. And where do you get the idea that Jesus makes you a Jesus expert “if He so chooses”? Did Jesus choose you to become a Jesus expert? How do you know? Why would He choose you and not someone else? Where do you get your beliefs?

  67. Read the article. It was long. While it attempted to be logical, it lacked the necessary theological understanding to be of much use. You won’t hear me. I know because I used to be like you. 2 theology degrees, hundreds of books, and much life experience later, it’s just not as simple as the narrow confines of evangelicalism. Case in point, sola scriptura is courtesy of Luther. Nothing to do with orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is defined by the creeds. Did he go against the Nicene creed? The Apostle’s creed? Did he challenge the council of Chalcedon? No? Well, then maybe stick with pulling the log out of your own eye, and not the speck in his eye, brother. Take it down a notch. Look for common ground, and don’t tear others down. Life is too short to be an angry Christian. Jesus came to give life to the full. Embrace the fullness and move forward.

    • What you just said make absolutely no sense. I didn;t attempt to be logical, I actually was logical. The only people who lack necessary theological undestanding are the charismatic types like yourself and Sleeping Giant who embrace post modern thinking and emotional experiences over God’s Word. You just said it yourself. You do not value God’s word as final and complete.

  68. Your post clearly gives me the knowledge that Pharisee-minded people are still living in this world. Tommy and Mattie are being used by God mightily, while you are sitting, whining and condemning people who are actually living for the glory of Christ. Now tell me, how did you get any better than them?

  69. Dear author of this article,

    You seem to be off-base, jumping to conclusions. Is your Christian experience that lackluster that you cannot imagine someone truly having an experience with Jesus that doesn’t fit your mold? I am sorry for you. Tommy Green’s focus is on One Man, Jesus Christ, and is a seeker of Him and encourages others to seek Him above all else. A life lived in seeking Jesus will experience Him in powerful ways, and if one doesn’t experience him personally, then perhaps he needs a fire lit under his bottom – because Jesus will wreck you and turn you upside down if you let Him – and leave you with no great intellectual, scholarly explanation.

    How unsearchable are His ways! The mind cannot comprehend it. And yet, overly religious people as yourself keep Him confined and worship tradition and self interpreted “theology” and hold onto that over the power and truth of God as revealed by His word as the Holy Spirit enlightens it. Have you experienced the power of God? The problem seems to be your paradigm. You do place God, the Father in a box. You will always be limited with your relationship with Jesus as long as you place Him in a box… the Bible is a completely inspired work – truly the words of God powerfully put into writing – the most life-changing written work ever conceived. That being said, do you understand everything that is written in it? Do you know the mind of the Lord? Are you His sole mouthpiece, or could He possibly speak and reveal Himself to another vessel? I pity religious folk as yourself… may you become acquainted, not with MERELY a theology or a doctrine, but with the God-Man Himself – Jesus the Christ. He wants to know you personally in addition to knowing His Word as written in the bible… both are very important, and we should not have one without the other…

    • John 7:24 calls me to judge with righteous judgment. It is through the Word of God I made my conclusions about the new reformation movement and the Christian hardcore scene.
      If the mold does not fit the Word of God of course I cannot imagine someone actually having an experience with Jesus like that.

      “he needs a fire lit under his bottom – because Jesus will wreck you and turn you upside down if you let Him – and leave you with no great intellectual, scholarly explanation.”

      Where in the Bible does it state this? I don’t know where it is.

      “How unsearchable are His ways! The mind cannot comprehend it. And yet, overly religious people as yourself keep Him confined and worship tradition and self interpreted “theology” and hold onto that over the power and truth of God as revealed by His word as the Holy Spirit enlightens it. ”

      Where did God reveal in His word what you said about “self interpreted theology” and on what basis is my theology self interpreted and how did you come to interpret your idea of experiences being the basis of what is true with God?

      Yes, if the box is the Bible, God’s inerrant, infallible, perfect an sufficient revealed Word, then yes I do put God in a box. You on the other hand allow anything to pollute what God has revealed because you simply experiences it. Subjective experiences are not a strong foundation of truth.

      “the Bible is a completely inspired work – truly the words of God powerfully put into writing – the most life-changing written work ever conceived. That being said, do you understand everything that is written in it? Do you know the mind of the Lord? Are you His sole mouthpiece, or could He possibly speak and reveal Himself to another vessel?”

      Oooo lots of snarky, self righteous anger in you….Yes the Bible is God’s completely inspired work. That is why I base my beliefs on what it says and not on a personan emotional and ecstatic experience. It is dangerous to just allow anything to be my basis for faith. If the Bible is so life changing why are you so against it being the basis for faith in God?
      Yes, I do understand most of what is written in the Bible. It was written for us to actually understand it. Is God so lacking in common sense that He forgot to realize we should probably understand what He is teaching us? Even a layman can understand the language in the Bible. We have so many scholars of history, archaeology, science, culture, and textual critics to prove God’s Word as true and is coherent. Most likely a retarded or imbecilic person with a born mental disorder might not understand how to read but average people can read easily and know what it says.
      Nobody knows the mind of the Lord, not even you or your “christcore friends.” But what we do know is God’s revealed message and communication through the Bible. This is what God wanted us to know about Him and salvation and life. I am not God’s mouthpiece. God is His own mouthpiece through the Bible. After all John 1:1 says that “the Word is God.” I think if I understand the Bible’s message for mankind than I do understand God to that extent.
      Does Tommy Green and his buddies or you even understand the ecstatic, emotional experiences that you have? How do you interpret them? Yourself? Through your own mind? How do you confirm them as true? How do we know they are true? Oh wait, you do the very same thing you accuse me of. Mae a personal interpretation and theology of “anti-theology.”
      At least I have the Bible to tell me how to interpret life. I don’t rely on myself. Thank God for that.

      You are claiming we need to have supernatural ecstatic experiences in order to be effective Christians. Where does it say this in the Bible and where did you come to this conclusion?

      God’s Word is sufficient for us to be powerful Christians. God’s Word lacks nothing for us to be effective in ministry and saved from our sins. What you promote and what the charismatic, new reformation, and bands like Sleeping Giant do is insult the Word of God and make it weak and ineffective.

      “Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.” (Proverbs 30:5)

      “The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The precepts of the Lord are aright, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the Lord are true; they are righteous altogether.” (Psalm 19:7–9)

      God’s Word is personal and intimate and it is also God’s POWER! I have the power of God in His Word. You insult God’s ability to be effective through His Word and claim we need extra biblical experiences to actually know God. This is false. Hebrews 4:12 states,
      “The word of God is living and active. Sharper than any two edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”

      Why can’t your charismatics and pentecostals and new age spiritualists understand this? What spirit is keeping you from this understanding and blocking your ability to know simple things from God?

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